India Willoughby, Question Time Thu 2 Feb 2240

Breaking 2323 News .

Archaelogists today uncovered the final resting place of an early 21st centuryperson called India Willoughby. To their surprise, since contemporary records indicate that India Willoughby declared themselves a woman complete with a cervix, the skeletal remains were clearly those of a man.

Willoughby’s attempts to bring some reason into the debate were met with mocking shouts across the panel from Whelan and rapturous applause and hoots from a number of audience members. Bruce opened up the subject to the audience where Whelan’s supporters were represented in one particularly odious exchange between Willoughby and an older woman who had the contempt to look her directly in the eye and effectively state "you are still a man".

I couldn’t believe that this woman could morally justify such disdain to another human being, or that the panel chair simply allowed it to go unchallenged. All this happened among the continuous backing from particular gammon-coloured audience members.

interesting?? Article

Or witch.

India could have an argument with themselves in an empty room and still be unable to put forward a convincing and coherent point of view.

Men being called she happens on mumsnet all the time. Initials or names are respectful of people without needing to use incorrect pronouns.

I agree Elsie.

We need to stop calling men "she".

200 years and in essence we still have idiot males debating whether women have souls.

It's always the terra nullis thing.

Women are things to a misogynist. Blank, empty little cyphers, and anything they think is obviously all about men (or babies), because what else is there for them to think about? And any space they have or resource they have is just wasted brownfield of no importance or relevance, much better taken over to be useful to men.

One of the rules of misogyny: if it isn't useful to men it's pointless (and men taking it over and doing something useful with it is a positive.)

This is what has always confused women about the ideology: how can men insist they are women and joining womenhood when there is no joining involved, no sisterhood or wish to be connected in any way. It isn't joining. It's commandeering and repurposing. Hence W's demonstration that they are a much better sort of woman than an actual one. By being a man inside a woman's appearance.

QT audiences are very carefully chosen to be representative of the population as a whole.

I wonder if anyone at the BBC will notice that there was a deafening silence after India's pronouncements and warm applause when others spoke against India's points...

I wonder if anyone else will notice, too.

Funny that Josh can smell bigotry - all my little-lady-nose can detect is the distinct whiff of BeardyWokeBro misogyny?

Oops clicked post too soon!

Wanted to say thanks to all the far more articulate than me women on this thread. I appreciate your time and input more than you'll ever realise.

I'm so glad to read this thread - I started reading it last night, started watching QT this morning and had to turn it off (round the 'jam and knitting' comment I think). IW is just so....willingly disingenuous? Not even sure. But genuinely don't know why she believes she is trotted out all the time if not for the trans status.

Anyway, for me it boils down to:

1. A large population of men are predatory. We know that some will go to extraordinary lengths to get to their victims. For some reason, a lifetime of celibacy for an abusive priest is accepted but wearing a dress for an abusive man trying to get into a shelter is not. Even though we have evidence of it happening.
2. Due to 'Be Kind' (and in general, socialisation), we cannot say that sorry, you might be a transwoman but we can accurately sex you as male in 99.9% of times. In fact the only time it's not evident seems to be in still images. No one will say this out loud. Add this to 'trans people offend in the same patterns of their natal sex' and it's a double whammy of important info people just won't admit let alone say.
3. TRAs are quite happy to erase years of safeguarding advice because they know no one will say these things, and then we find ourselves in this ridiculous situation.

I love this quote, which is from the 1993 film Demolition Man. It has literally nothing to do with trans people, but I like quoting it to those people who are happy to put women at risk so long as no male feelings are hurt:

Chief George Earle: We can just wait for another code to go red. And when Phoenix performs another Murder Death Kill, we'll know exactly where to pounce.
John Spartan: [sarcastic] Great plan.
Chief George Earle: [not realising the sarcasm] Thank you.
Erwin: He likes your plan, Chief!

😃

This reminds me of last Friday’s bizarre thread re: nattering (& knattering and gnattering).

My brain has now wandered off to a vaguely sci-fi looking future fantasy-land…

It’s now 2323 and a group of academics are puzzling over the possibility of a shared etymological origin for ‘‘terfyn’ (noun: boundary, limit end) and ‘terfing’ ‘terf’ ‘terfed’ (verb/noun: to define and uphold boundaries relating to the sex based rights of all humans, but especially those of women & girls).

(works like dancing/dance/danced)

eg ‘She terfed happily all around the town, accompanied by her new, extremely experienced terfing partners’

‘I’m perfoming a 5 minute terf on stage tonight, with live, musical accompaniment’

😃😃😃

That's why they used a woman to play the first transwoman in Soapland.

Would people have been so sympathetic to little Hayley Cropper if Hayley Cropper had been 6'5, built like a brick outside convenience and still in proud ownership of a "ladydique"?

I think not . . .

Real women don't think the WI is about sitting around making jam and knitting

Such a silly picture India paints. The jumpers would get sticky.

I now have IW in my head like a hermit crab looking for a new shell ! 😁

Thank fuck I'm old and fat! I don't even want my shell!

Willoughby said that most people think women's prisons are like the WI, sitting around making jam and knitting.

Real women don't think the WI is about sitting around making jam and knitting.

Tbh I think at sone point last year we agreed it stood for Tired of Explaining Reality to Fuckwits 😁

I expect most people using the term terf couldn't tell you what radical feminist means and they certainly don't check your politics beyond knowing (and saying) that men aren't women.

It serves the same purpose as heretic. We just need to keep on making our arguments.

I wouldn't mind so much, but India relies on the fact that they are male in order to make a living. It's their entire USP. If India was actually a biological woman, no one would give a fuck what they thought and they wouldn't be asked to comment on anything.

I was just about to type exactly this. India would be a nobody if India were really a woman.

Have youe ever heard the phrase "Give someone enough rope to hang themself"

There's a really bizarre article in the SNP fanzine about last night's show:

www.thenational.scot/politics/23297413.question-time-audience-glasgow---atmosphere-poisonous/

Written by “Josh” who says “I know the smell of bigotry” and characterises Whelan’s comments as “nasty diatribe about biological sex and how women are the victims among all of this”.

Are women not the victims when they are expected to put up with a rapist in their midst?

No idea who “Josh” is related to, that this stuff, which a student newspaper would reject, gets published less than 12 hours after the event.

That's a nice thing to know - thank you @IcakethereforeIam

And agree @NicolaSturgeonsSOGIbottom - good post

It's so interesting when India makes these sweeping generalisations that only serve to reveal India's own ignorance, prejudice and rank misogyny.

The reveal last night that they think rape victims should go to prison was a bit concerning. Or maybe the thinking is that rapists are the true victims of rape? I’m not sure I entirely want to understand that one, although it is morbidly fascinating.