This is very important to read for all parents

“It mentions, incidentally, that their mental health deteriorates if they are given hormones.”

“It goes on to say that a large Swedish study showed that those who had had gender reassignment surgery
were more likely to commit suicide.”

Yes. I remember reading these points brought up by various gender clinical experts in UK, US and Australia too.

This is consistent.

There is this narrative by lobby groups and activists that hormones and surgery increase mental health and reduce suicide. This is never been proved. And the clinicians report that mental health may have a blip with a new treatment but then decreases again. They, the experts, report that those transitioners feel the treatment was not the magic pill they expected. They then seek the next treatment option.

Just as Oli London is saying he felt after each surgery.

The clinicians believe it is because of not treating comorbidities first. including trauma

It is La La La stuff with fingers in the ears while people have been trying to answer in good faith.

Re: transing young people
there was a thread yesterday of a Finnish report;

Riittakerttu Kaltiala, Finland's leading expert on pediatric gender medicine and chief psychiatrist at its largest gender clinic (Tampere University), just gave an interview to the country's leading newspaper, Helsingin Sanomat.

The interview highlights just how out of step the U.S. medical establishment is with its European counterparts on pediatric gender medicine. Doctors and medical groups in Finland have been willing and able to stand up to activists, including within their own ranks

Though not about sexual function after transitioning,

the report does point out that it is not true that not being affirmed is is the cause of suicidal thoughts in gender dysphoric young people

It mentions, incidentally, that their mental health deteriorates if they are given hormones.

It goes on to say that a large Swedish study showed that those who had had gender reassignment surgery
were more likely to commit suicide.

Excerpts :
Helsingin: Suicide was a very rare occurrence in about ten years among young people seeking gender identity diagnoses. On the other hand, in a large Swedish study, suicide mortality had clearly increased among adults who had received gender reassignment treatments

"Therefore it is not justified to tell the parents of young people identifying as transgender that a young person is at risk of suicide without medical treatments and that the danger can be alleviated with gender reassignment," says Kaltiala.

twitter.com/LeorSapir/status/1620448081039994881

It is pretty blatant isn't it. Those accusations of ignorance were pure projection.

A poster who boasted about their depth of knowledge cannot even engage with the realities of childhood and adolescent transition.

la la la la - fingers in ears kind of stuff.

"For many trans people their sex life radically improves after transition."

I doubt there is one shred of evidence for this bold statement. Apart from 'my mates seem to be ok'.

Readers, the side effect of lack of sexual pleasure and orgasm is a well known one from stopping the growth of an immature penis with puberty blockers.

But hey, such callous disregard because one poster has some mature transitioned mates and they seem to have told this poster they have satisfying sex lives and this poster has shown the complete lack of ability to understand the difference between a mature male who loves their penis and uses it regularly or at least has a prostate still vs a puberty blocked one.

It really is that simple.

So many of these people that show such blatant disregard for the plight of these children are driven by the need to never actually read anything that might challenge their view. Because they probably know that if they did question it within their group, they would be ostracised.

Which is coincidently one of the reasons that negative side effects are not discussed even within groups of friends. And also the reason some very vulnerable people continue with a transition they already have doubts about. Another fact discovered by listening to a very wide range of people.

And maybe even fucking reading the Daily Mail.

What a coward you are. Too scared to address the reality that children are being rendered asexual on purpose. That’s everyone’s business. Telling us to “butt out”.

No. Never. Not while children are being harmed.

This is very true. And as a parent, this situation, like your adult child's Transparent is very delicate.

Not to minimise your situation in any way, this also brings us back to Oli London. Who really does seem to be a very vulnerable man but is speaking out. For whatever reason, he is speaking out despite adversity.

There is also such a thing as a vulnerable adult; and any adult can be vulnerable in some circumstances. So, while I agree that children (most definitely including adolescents) are the main concern, there are many adults vulnerable to a movement with cult-like characteristics.

Yes that is a good point.

And there are consenting adults who regret transitioning.

This man is suing the nhs for malpractice.

gender-a-wider-lens.captivate.fm/episode/89-ritchies-detransition-the-myth-of-adult-invulnerability

(I was trying to find his substack (?) but can't.)

This is a very good point.

The brain is not fully developed till 25.

I know children are the worry. But I would like to add that whilst Consenting adults can do what they like, an 18, 19 and 20+ year old is still young and ought not be making permanent decisions with life long impacts.

Ultimately you need to butt your nose out of other people’s sex lives

Not when it's harming children. Fuck that.

It's Pie #2 ffs.

That is it?

That is the sum total of your contributions? Your bravado about how much you know, how ignorant everyone else is?

Well readers. Seems it is the same as usual then.

A poster with only the shame setting and plenty of emotional manipulation, misrepresentations and nothing else.

Nor will I shut up.

Imagine standing by while children are indoctrinated with confusing and false ideas which can lead to enormous physical and mental harm to them.

Ultimately you need to butt your nose out of other people’s sex lives , their legal gender, and what they do with their own bodies. That’s what this is about when it comes down to brass tacks.

Sorry but we have every right to be alarmed that children are being socially transitioned to this pathway.

Consenting adults can do what they like.

Children are being socially transitioned to something that it is very very hard to back track from and are being harmed as a result.

I will not shut up about the harm it is doing, especially to autistic girls.

When it comes to the brass tacks as you put it, you have asked us to shut up about social contagion and influencer factors for children. I am not going to shut up when it is clear that this can result in irreparable harm.

I accidentally read this 😩. I was not intending to return to this thread.

Of course surgeries shouldn’t be required for gender recognition. I never said that surgeries have “no impact” on someone’s sex life, equally it’s nonsense to say that a perfectly satisfying sex life is not possible with surgery. For many trans people their sex life radically improves after transition. But should it be required - absolutely not. It is of course an individual and personal choice.

Ultimately you need to butt your nose out of other people’s sex lives , their legal gender, and what they do with their own bodies. That’s what this is about when it comes down to brass tacks.

over and out.

I have been watching events in QLD with a heavy heart NotBad. However it has been good to see the discussions getting some publicity at least. (yeah… love ya Queenland! 👀)

I do now remember that comment from the Tavistock too.

It is sickening to see adults say that. To say ‘it is all fine! There are so many ways to have sex!!! While ignoring that it doesn’t matter how many ways a person can have sex, there is no sexual function in some cases and no ability to climax. But of course …. a person without that potential is still a great sex partner for someone aren’t they? Or they can just go without sex, says people who have and hopefully still enjoy sex!

Then comes the part where they declare that having their own children is not an issue either. Plenty of people choose not to or cannot. And if they do want children then you can use a surrogate ! While ignoring the ethics and exploitative nature of that decision.

The twists at this stage are so predictable.

“They can just be asexual” was also used by the lawyers for the Tavistock in justifying rendering children that way. You know, that “garbage” judgement that documented the argument that it didn’t matter if children grew up to be asexual adults.

And the fact surgeries cause a significant impact on sexual functioning, together with significant complications, is being used by trans activists to argue that surgery should not be a prerequisite to legally being able to change one’s sex marker.

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/the-feed/article/queensland-looks-set-to-scrap-unnecessary-requirement-for-surgery-to-change-gender-on-birth-certificate/7areglo1a

So which is it? Either having hormones and surgery has no impact on people’s sex lives, or the impact on sex lives is too serious for people to have it done.

(For the record, I don’t think anyone should be having hormone treatments and surgeries, and I don’t think anyone should be able to change their legal sex marker.)

NotBad

That post may be significantly telling though.

I would expect that the poster is not really familiar with those who have had puberty blocked. We know that so many extremists hand wave away the ability to enjoy sex for others. I remember a mature male poster a year or so ago who declared to us that a child who has their puberty blocked would just fit in with the Asexual sexuality.

Yeah. No joke. A mature male who seemed to have had children simply declared that these children don’t need to understand what they are missing out on.

Damage is allowed because of evangelical like faith. Never questioning but never allowing others too either.

”Lots of trans people who’ve have interventions have a perfectly satisfying and happy sex life. Sorry if it doesn’t conform to your heterosexist norms.”

in response to the known serious impact of lack of orgasm and pleasure ?

Fuck. The built in denial mechanism is as plain as day isn’t it?

Is there a playbook somewhere that reads: when denying the side effect that means no ability to orgasm turn it to ‘shame the supposed heterosexuals’.

I can only assume that this blithe disregard for someone else’s lack of ability to orgasm comes from a person who has that ability and maybe even has their own children.

Something else that gets pithily downplayed.

When you finally see it, you simply can’t miss it.

Great work Helle.

I just need to make an addition here.

This paper seems to be trying to frame the prevalence of HIV against the 'general adult population'? It includes a study on transitioned male prisoners who were regularly engaging in homosexual sex in prison and again another two studies regarding sex workers.

I think this is an issue. I am surprised that this was allowed to be honest. But hey, I have seen some pretty flawed studies of late.

The appropriate comparator for this study would be framing the prevalence of HIV against the homosexual male population, or even just all males, and maybe even better - against the homosexual male sex worker population.

It becomes meaningless to make such a comparison with the 'rest of the general adult population'? What for? What is the significance? Why compare people who are engaged in the highest risk activities with a population that don't take any risks?

To make the result look more dramatic? I don't know. I could not work it out really but maybe I missed something. I don't believe it added to the study. It could have been left out it was such a useless comparison.

Does that population under study need unique care and protection? Yes. Of course it does.

Thanks so much for your diligence @Helleofabore , really informative.

Agree @ScrollingLeaves I wish HQ would stop trying to sheepdog this important discussion into a small corner. Surely 'Let Women Speak' should apply on mumsnet as much as anywhere?!

Thank you again Helleobafore.

Mumsnet HQ in my opinion you were wrong to move this important information about a potentially dangerous new element in our children’s, grandchildren’s, relative’s and friend’s lives away from a main line thread where a wide range of people might have looked if they chose.

I am also posting this for readers as well to give context to this discussion.

These statistics are from the Cass Report but they are findable elsewhere and they follow the trend in other countries as well.

In 2009, 15 Adolescent female patients were referred to GIDS and 2 Children. That is 17.

In 2016, 1071 Adolescent female patients and 138 Children. That is 1209.

This represents a 7012% increase.

In 2009, 24 Adolescent male patients were referred to GIDS and 10 Children.
That is 34.

In 2016, 426 Adolescent male patients and 131 Children. That is 557.

This represents a 1538% increase.

It has gone from Female : male ratio in 2009 being 0.5 : 1 to 2.1 : 1 in 2016.

And readers, the numbers have continued to climb in that same trajectory in the years since 2016. This is why worldwide there is so much concern.

This is why some heavily invested people wish to continue to downplay the potential of social contagion. A good thing that clinicians are ignoring those people and have started to finally look for answers.

No Debate prevented discussion about this teenaged female cohort but not any more.

When you look at people, posters, who wish to stifle discussion, ask yourself, who exactly benefits from that? In this instance, did those female patients benefit from discussion being framed as 'transphobic' and shut down when people started to raise the alarms? No fucking way.

Instead, we have had an even greater push by ideological believers that clinicians should only follow affirming only treatments.

Even Dr Cass said (as I quote up thread):

From the point of entry to GIDS there appears to be predominantly an affirmative, non-exploratory approach, often driven by child and parent expectations and the extent of social transition that has developed due to the delay in service provision.

So a note to you when you are presented with evidence that certain treatment plans work 'best', check the date of any research. If it is prior to even 2015 but certainly 2016 when the alarms were starting to clang, it is likely not to include the change in demographics. Check those demographics EVERY time too. Even recent studies. Check the date of the data they are using. Check the demographics closely.

We often get people post a cluster of 50+ studies from a page from a prominent university in the USA as some kind of trophy 'gotcha'. Not one of those studies address the issues faced by this new dominant cohort. It is just as notable that there are no detransitioner statistics that are appropriately collected. (These were considered transphobic to discuss too!! Once!!! )

We are now lucky in that studies will start coming through. But it is too late for many female patients.

It could mean that they are booked from the internet??? I wonder.