Andrew Burns AKA Tiffany Scott

I would say that comment is unfair to trans people. I also didn't say they are doing anything to break gender binary, I say we live in a world where gender binary isn't broken.

If you don't want to at all entertain trans identities in day to day like then I don't see why anyone who holds those views would also purport to be transphobic?

And yes I don't see the value in refusing to use trans peoples' preferred pronouns and identity.

They would want you to behave as if they have changed gender.

and do you think us all pretending that if a chap slips on a blouse and talks about his 'lady brain' he is really a woman helps break that gender binary or reinforce it?

They would want you to behave as if they have changed gender.

I do understand this but when you look at the societal and patriarchal world we live in as context, I understand why if someone is trans, bearing in mind that sex is binary, and identify as the opposite sex, they would want to present to the world in ways that are stereotypically female.

I consider them victims of binary gender roles rather than perpetrators. Perhaps if society truly changed and there were no longer social pressures that dictated that femininity and masculinity are intrinsically linked to maleness and femaleness, then nobody would identify as trans. Or maybe there would still be trans people and we'd find out that all along it is just an innate emotional or psychological thing, more like sexual orientation.

But in any case that world doesn't exist yet.

you're about where I was 7 years ago.

That is very unfortunate and changes my opinion somewhat on NS.

you want me to use female pronouns for some men

you want me to behave as if they've changed sex

I never said anyone's feelings don't matter, so I hope that isn't aimed at me.

I think people need to stop believing or pretend believing that they think being trans means changing bio sex. People advocating for trans people need to stop doing that and people using it as an excuse to detract from trans people also need to stop doing it.

Unless this whole bullshit reductive facade doesn't end, there will never be peace for anyone.

That unfortunately was exactly what HE did when she whipped the party to vote through the GRR Bill without safeguards in place, in fact safeguards were suggested but knocked back. It's shit show of a bill with low support from the people of Scotland.

yeah, we disagree

reality ain't transphobic

My position is that in most situations in life, things can be mixed sex.

Where we need to separate, I can think of many reasons to do so on the basis of sex, and none to do so on the basis of gender.

So, if transwomen like to wear dresses, make up, and high heels, then fine. But nothing can make a man a woman.

silly Arabella

your feelings don't matter!

well it bloody well should have been done with them in mind

scot gov were warned often enough that the Isla Brysons are there

no, I don't think most men who enjoy role playing as women are violent rapists. but they do have bloody weird ideas about women. how could they not? they think that by changing their clothes and their mannerisms and the way they think they can literally become women

it's incredibly sexist and insulting. I don't have to smile and take it.

But I find it hurtful that a man claims he's a woman.

You don't think it's transphobia but calling a man who identifies as a trans woman "he" would obviously be transphobic. Whether you meant it or not. If there was a random transwoman presenting as female by wearing a dress and a wig came into your office for a meeting or bought a coffee from you and you insist on calling them "he". That is transphobic. That's all I'm saying. You might not agree with me but they certainly would. It's not going to be any less hurtful to them because you are GC.

see, I don't think that using the correct sex based pronouns for someone is transphobia. so I don't think I am transphobic. I see a man, I say 'he'

I genuinely have no problem with people dressing as they like. I'd be pretty fucking annoyed if I got fired for wearing trousers or having short hair, and likewise I'd be angry if a man was fired for wearing a frock

what I don't get is the insistence that trans people have changed sex. they haven't. I don't have to pretend they have.

I suppose most people go about their lives not being rapists and violent criminals, so people like Isla Byrson weren't the target demographic.

This is my point. These things are implemented with trans people in mind. The fact that it can be exploited by predators should be the argument. I literally don't see the need to bring down an already pretty heavily marginalised minority, who are all individuals and not some homogenous group think with the same opinion, due to this conflict of rights.

The fact that it wasn't thought out properly in terms of safeguarding is a travesty, but it's not trans peoples fault, it's their fault for being short sighted and naive. I don't believe anyone in Scottish government was deliberately serving up women to violent criminals.

I don't know that tbf, I don't know much about NS. Surely no woman is "happily sending rapists off to women's prisons" that sounds like hyperbole.

FWIW and this is probably not the thread for it, your middle paragraphs do sum up my position on the gender ideology debate. I will have to remain gender critical due to not only the damage to women not doing so does, but also because there is no such thing as a just and fair system really, that can arbitrate who is "trans enough" to be accepted into single sex spaces and who isn't.

I will admit I oscillate on this point quite a lot. Sometimes I believe that there are cases in which people are so trans that it no longer makes sense to consign them to single sex spaces designed for the opposite sex. But ultimately, in settings where women are genuinely in vulnerable positions in that same sex environment, I do come down on the GC side.

What I do have a problem with is how hard it is to separate this view with the transphobia of trans people as an entire demographic that goes with it. Like on MN where people claim that they're not transphobic, only care about the appropriation of womens' rights and spaces, but then denigrate trans people, imply and discuss how it's solely a sexual fetish, disparage the very idea of using preferred pronouns etc. I fail to see how any of that behaviour is relevant to upholding the rights of women and is not just hatred of trans people, or at the very least an indifference to their wants and needs as a group.

I can acknowledge that TRA and #nodebate has perhaps contributed to a perceived need to be combative and it seems that many at least on here, have developed an all or nothing attitude. I also understand how the phrase "trans women are women" has become detrimental to the trans rights cause because it's easy to interpret that as "trans women are biological women". I never interpreted the phrase like that but it seems I'm in the minority there and even public authorities talk about TWAW like it means that.

I genuinely don't understand what is so hard about saying that sex matters and that some spaces are single sex for a specific reason and that you as someone born male don't have the lived experience needed to decide that that is irrelevant, but also that we can respect that trans identity is real and valid and that most parts of every day life are not segregated by need for single sex spaces and therefore there is no problem with accepting peoples' gender identity in society.

People on here always say that they do think that and they don't care that people identify as trans but then lose their minds at the idea of using pronouns etc. How can one fight the legitimate fight for women's rights when one is engaging in activity which rightly lands them labelled as transphobic? If that is your genuine intention and you genuinely aren't transphobic, does it not bother you that you might be unintentionally acting in such a way?