Andrew Burns AKA Tiffany Scott

"I consider them victims of binary gender roles rather than perpetrators."

Aren't we all? But by insisting that by refusing to conform with binary gender roles they become the opposite sex, they actually entrench these binary roles even further. It makes it worse for everyone else; now non conformity is taking as a sign you are in the wrong body, rather than refusing to comply with arbitrary stereotypes. It isn't broadening the scope of womanhood, rather it narrows it still further.

👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏

It's not an act of neutral kindness to accept trans women as women. Telling a man he truly is a woman because of how he feels inside is not like telling your friend her new hairdo looks great when it's not all that. It takes from women. It reduces women. It makes us caricatures, reduces us to a man's idea of how "women" think.

Reading through the last few pages, it strikes me.

Here is a women's rights forum.

Women have been freely, carelessly imprisoned with rapists and murderers, two of who so dangerous that their sentences have ended but they cannot be released. Due to political ideology that glorifies the male and regards the female as subhuman and irrelevant.

And what are we focusing on?

The feelings, inner lives, best interests and wishes of men, and whether we are carefully enough considering all of these things before we get a bit cross or are too unkind about this.

The people I care about are exclusively at this point the women at the sharp end of this appalling policy, and ideology, the shallow end of all this having permitted someone like Scott to be approved for the female estate. I do not include in that group anyone who was born male.

I'm confused how much transness is required for a man to win a woman's sporting competition... does it reverse male puberty advantage? Or is it fair to exclude transwomen from high profile sport but enable other women never to win their local school sports day race because? Or they only win when the transed male permits? Or is there a level of transness that allows men to shower with women in prison? Or maybe a transness that means women authors are pushed down a rung for certain awards?
It's one thing to not want single sex, non intimate activities and another to co-opt them. Make them mixed sex if you want but acknowledge this is what is happening. There is no level of transness justifiable for anything that is deemed single sex and speaking this truth is harsh. This is why the polite courtesy of be kind was initially accepted. It has been abused, so now we speak the truth until the single sex spaces for women are left alone. Wear whatever you like. Go out with who ever you want. But leave sex alone. Sex matters. That's all we've ever said. When lots of women say it together, it sounds transphobic. But all we really want are our single sex awards and spaces back. You'll note that we at no point need to scrutinise the intent of the male involved. It's not about them. It's about the women involved.

Me too. I started by being more considerate but men have gone too far with it.

So not anymore. Pronouns etc you can’t change sex.

Honestly candle I reached breaking point with the decapitate Terfs signs. We've been kind. We've respected feelings and pronouns, we've asked them to define feeling like a woman past clothes and toys. We've asked if third surfaces wouldn't be better. We've been shouted at, assaulted told to shut up. And now some TRA stands by politicians calling for our death.

No. I'm done. I am allowed by law to believe that you cannot change sex. Therefore anyone saying they actually are is according to my belief lying.

Now I'm not saying I'm transphobic. You can wear, do, say, feel, live how you want. You can remove and add bits to your body. You can take drugs meant for the other sex. I would have helped fight for third spaces. You deserved equality in law. But you cannot change sex.

So if someone does the above, but acknowledges they are still the same sex they've always been great, and therefore your pronouns match your actual sex, all the best. But if someone expects me to collude in their fantasy and call them the opposite sex I'm No longer prepared to do that.

ok, so you accept that trans people thinking that social characteristics make some men women or some women men means they are inherently sexist?

I didn't say they weren't sexist!! That's not my argument at all.

I'm simply saying I don't blame trans people for the fact that there are gendered views of men and women beyond biologically being male and female.

no you haven't given any examples

give examples please

then listen to how sexist you sound

prove me wrong

give me some real examples of the social characteristics of maleness

I do appreciate that honestly, but I suppose that is the difference between us. I just don't assume that most trans people are identifying as trans to be manipulative or predatory. That's why I would always use preferred pronouns etc.

If someone is acting oddly I would avoid or report them, whatever is appropriate. Regardless of sex or gender identity. There's a trans woman who volunteers at a service I use (a service completely unrelated to any sex segregated ones). They're lovely. I don't look at them and think, "ew, I bet you're getting a kick out of wearing your hair long and putting a skirt on." That's a horrible and transphobic assumption! What's the justification?

Hah - I was just about to post that image!

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4726257-nick-timothy-in-the-telegraph-on-the-grr

@CandlelightGlow if you click on the thread above and read the article in the telegraph it explains what motivates a lot of people currently under the trans 🌂

The SNP, Scottish Greens, Lib Dems and Scottish Labour voted against suggested amendments to the GRR being put in place to safeguard the safety, dignity and wellbeing of women in prisons, including -

an amendment to pause an application for a GRC for those charged with rape or sexual assault which was defeated by the casting vote of the Presiding Officer.

An amendment which sought to prevent convicted sex offenders being allowed to change their gender.

There were over 150 amendments, discussed over a ridiculously short 2 days, with the majority voted down, including a suggestion to yearly monitor the effects of the GRR Bill on women and girl's rights.

The Scottish Government's hand was forced at the 11th hour to hold an additional evidence session because they had refused to hear from experts on VAWG. The 'feminist' groups in support of the bill are all majority funded by the Scottish Government.

The SNP had to whip its members into voting for the Bill and even then, faced the biggest revolt by SNP MSP's since they came to power.

All this is in addition to the Scottish Government being warned repeatedly that the SPS's policy was being unduly influenced by Scottish Trans Alliance who said the following -

'We strategized – we strategized – that by working intensively with the Scottish Prison Service to support them to include trans women as women on a self-declaration basis within very challenging circumstances, we would be able to ensure that all other public services should be able to do likewise’.

No women's groups or experts were consulted in the development of the policy. No female prisoners were consulted. The EQIA doesn't consider the effects on women in prison at all.

So either the Scottish Government are appallingly incompetent or they simply don't care.

Neither fills me with confidence.

I think we are all aware of generalised characteristics of the sexes. I understand the purpose of the thought exercise but I feel like I've already addressed this in that post.

as someone who lives in a world where characteristics, physical, emotional, aesthetic and social characteristics, are associated with not only masculinity and femininity but deeper than that into maleness and femaleness, I have no problem understanding that gender dysphoria and a sense of not identifying with your biological gender is real

what are the emotional characteristic of maleness?

what are the social characteristics of femaleness?

But if they won't follow the rules about believing someone and not misgendering. Why should I when I believe someone is lying

does he belong in a women's hospital ward?

does your lovely polite trans woman belong on the Jo Cox women in leadership programme?

does your fictional lovely polite trans woman belong in the ladies loos at your work?

but that they felt trans (a feeling I can't relate to).

But they aren't saying they feel trans. They are saying they feel like the opposite sex. But they have to be lying because they cannot know what that feels like.

I think you are where many of us have been over the years. But to touch on a couple of your points

"Sometimes I believe that there are cases in which people are so trans that it no longer makes sense to consign them to single sex spaces designed for the opposite sex."

I did go through a phase of thinking that if you had gone through full so called reassignment surgery then maybe you should be allowed in to single sex spaces. But the more I thought about it the more I had a few issues with this

1. Most of us can identify a male or female without seeing what is in their pants (contrary to popular belief). But we have no way of telling if said male has had the contents of their pants surgically inverted. So how would we tell the difference between a post op and pre op individual? Answer - we can't. And on a day to day basis women need to be able to say "you're a bloke, beat it" or the whole thing doesn't work
2. Whilst surgery removes the penis, it doesn't change male pattern behaviour or strength
3. I can't in any good conscience hold a position which might push more people to have these horrific surgical procedures.

So for me, no, there is no point where I now think "you can go in women's spaces" with regards to anyone male.

and
"I consider them victims of binary gender roles rather than perpetrators."

Aren't we all? But by insisting that by refusing to conform with binary gender roles they become the opposite sex, they actually entrench these binary roles even further. It makes it worse for everyone else; now non conformity is taking as a sign you are in the wrong body, rather than refusing to comply with arbitrary stereotypes. It isn't broadening the scope of womanhood, rather it narrows it still further.

I'm sure trans people as individuals all have different and sometimes opposing views on what it means to be trans!

Gender identity is a social construct, it's not something definitive and anchored like sex. I'm sure that the nature of it means different people have different opinions on what it means to be trans.

Also

No I'm not going to flounce! It's not some big secret surely? If someone tells me they are a trans woman and told me they used she/her pronouns I would assume that they wanted me to refer to them as a woman. I don't have any worries that this person would believe they were literally a natal woman but that they felt trans (a feeling I can't relate to) and so had transitioned. Though I can't imagine what it must be like to feel trans, as someone who lives in a world where characteristics, physical, emotional, aesthetic and social characteristics, are associated with not only masculinity and femininity but deeper than that into maleness and femaleness, I have no problem understanding that gender dysphoria and a sense of not identifying with your biological gender is real. The fact that people put up with abuse and discrimination and that they ask to be referred to as the opposite of their birth sex tells me.

I genuinely don't understand what the whole confusion and I don't understand how the fact that there is a definitive reality of biological sex conflicts with the idea that someone could have a gender identity.

@CandlelightGlow

With regards misgendering and hurting feelings

In the past few days I have seen a transwoman tell another transwoman they aren't true trans as the second one still used he/him despite having had surgery and living their life as a woman. I've seen a man associated with stonewall decide a man with a beard can't be a transwoman. And I've listened to a transwoman decide another trans woman is probably lying and then purposely misgendered that transwoman. If the trans community can't decide on the rules and follow them, why should we?