Andrew Burns AKA Tiffany Scott

As you were.

I see the latest tactic from TRA Nats is to blame the UK government and the equality act for the Scottish prison policy 🤔

unfortunately whilst we sort transforms tho have equality in law we do not support that set the price of lots to us and unending if the safeguarding of children.

In English... Unfortunately whilst we support trans people to have equality in law we do not support that at the price of loss of safety to us and undermining the safeguarding of children.

Got to say Buck looks bloody good on both of those fotos! latest

But if Buck got arrested whilst here on holiday Id expect her to go into the female prison estate. Firstly because Buck is female and secondly because it would be wrong for Buck to go in the male estate as Buck is female. Thirdly Buck would be just as vulnerable as any woman in the male prison estate.

Also Im shocked at some posters assuming they are telling off an entire group of just women women who are all completely transphobic.

On this board some of our posters are women. Some are Transmen, some are Transwomen and some are men. Some are non binary. Some are straight, some are gay, some are bisexual, some are single, some are married, some are in Throuple. Some have husbands wives or children who are at some point along the transition process from i think i might be trans to fully inverted penises. (I could list forever so i shall stop there)

But in the main by the time we have made it to this board we are as a majority of the opinion that men can't actually be women and women can't actually be Men. Even if we have been ditched by with friends and family and society to think differently. That's why we are here on this board.

We tend to find that being called transphobic, homophobic, racist, terfs, bigots and witches is how these things end up when we state we don't agree with your minority stance.

So we Aren't the things in the above paragraph at all we are here because we believe in the rights of women and children and unfortunately whilst we sort transforms tho have equality in law we do not support that set the price of lots to us and unending if the safeguarding of children.

So this thug who smears his shit on walls, is capable of such rage he can bite through his own flesh and stalked a child should be nowhere near the female prisoners.

I don't care how far along his transition he is, 36DD fits and no longer had a penis and testicles, had three legs and a third nipple fit all i care. Living your best life and so that. However Under all that he is a man. And should either be sent to the State Hospital at Carstairs or remains in the male estate.

Just to confirm that Buck is open and public about being a biological woman, before anyone gets needlessly offended on Buck’s behalf

Would you expect women in prison to feel comfortable around a trans man that looks like Buck Angel?

Perhaps not. But Buck IS female. So, if there are only male and female places available it is on the women's prison to look for ways to manage that. And I think many women would, in fact, be ok once they knew Buck's status - I know I would. Not all, and that would need to be managed both for the distress to those women and the risk to Buck. But I certainly don't think a male prison would be the right place if nothing else because however much risk you think a trans women is at in a male prison, the risk to a trans man, even a fully transitioned one (which as far as I know Buck is not), will be worse.

Would you expect a trans woman who has been on puberty blockers, lifelong hormones and top and bottom surgery to be anywhere near safe in a mens' unit?

Interestingly, the few fully-transitioned males in prison ARE in the male estate and are not the ones putting in requests to transfer. Many men are at risk in male prisons - are trans women especially high risk, or is it just that, unlike the others, they have another option? Either way my answer here is the same as above - if there are only male and female places available it is on the men's prison to look for ways to manage that.

If you're a reasonable person without a transphobic agenda, the obvious answer to those questions is no.

I am a reasonable person without a transphobic agenda. And I do not agree with you. Certainly, I don't think a reasonable person without a misogynistic agenda should be considering women's prisons, and the women in them, to be a handy resource for the safely and comfort of male people who for any reason cannot be incarcerated with men.

Because sex essentialism doesn't work in every case. Treating demographics as homogenous groups will always come at the cost of individuals on both sides of the coin.

Yes. But ignoring demographics has a greater cost. Life isn't perfect, but doing nothing because we can't be 100% perfect is far worse than doing the best we we can.

Have you read my earlier post about why we segregate? It's not some ideological idea of "sex essentialism", quite the opposite.

I agree humans should not be held up as ideological concepts. We should make pragmatic decisions based on the problems we have to fix and use the best tools, however imperfect they are, to fix them.

Right now, the tools we have are based on binary sex. Better tools could be envisioned, for example more third spaces. But until those tools actually exist, we must do the best for the people who are in need right now with the tools we have. So if you want that to change, worry less about exactly which males should be allowed to use women's resources and focus on getting them support that's properly designed just for them.

Here’s a picture of Buck with two transwomen and another transman.

I would be far more comfortable sharing a cell with Buck, who is a biological female (and happy to discuss that openly) than I would be sharing a cell with a biological male.

I am about 2 inches shorter than Buck and we are both taller than average adult human females in both the UK and the USA.

I really cannot fathom why Buck is always brought up as some sort of scary gotcha.

Testosterone is powerful but it isn’t magical.

Of course women can and do do terrible things.

But try and make a list of sexually motivated female serial killers - it’ll be very short, whereas a list of male ones will be rather considerable. There is no female equivalent to say, Dennis Nilsen.

Male and female offending patterns ARE statistically significantly different and that difference has meant the safety and security protocols that have developed within the two prison estates are also very different.

The female estate is just not set up to deal with male violence or male sex offenders.

How many female prisoners have murdered fellow inmates in the UK? How many male prisoners have murdered fellow inmates in the UK?

There are some criminal behaviours that are actually far more common in women than in men - harming their own children through munchausens/fictitious illness is an obvious example, but a female prisoner can’t really munchie by proxy a fellow adult inmate the way she can a kid, can she?

It’s still a fucking awful thing to do to uour child and of course it should be prosecuted and punished but the prison risk profile of a mother who seriously harmed a child in this manner is low when it comes to the likelihood of harming her prison peers.

Same with a woman who hired thugs to kill her husband - she deserves to be charged and sentenced as though she physically killed him herself, but even as convicted murderer, her physical threat to fellow inmates is low.

(Does anyone know off hand what the female perp murder rate is in the US compared to here? The ubiquity of guns could be a significant variable. Pretty sure that the male perp murder rate is still much, much higher but happy to be proved wrong)

I can dig out some resources as to how the prison estates differ if you like?

FWIW I don’t think all trans prisoners should just be slung in with the general prison pop in the male estate, but rather that all trans prisoners, male and female, should have tailored provision that considers both their bio sex AND their transgender status.

Their trans status shouldn’t be prioritised OVER their sex, but it shouldn’t be completely ignored either, just like special provisions for elderly, disabled and young offenders exist.

Nahhh I'm definitely not as trans phobic as lots on here. I've got no problems with using pronouns, referring to myself as a cis woman, and trans people being allowed to use public toilets that match their assigned gender etc.

As much as people always say on here "I'm not transphobic I just believe in single sex spaces" those people in the same breath also say that you can't call trans women women and you can't even say trans and cis women (which by default means you have to say trans women and women, so clearly saying you don't think trans women are women even in the social constructy way and not the cunty way)

There's also the staff to think about. As a woman I would not be okay with taking a job in an all women's prison and then having to deal with Andrew as an inmate.

This is why I believe that the case by case basis system that is already in place is the best system to have. Would you expect women in prison to feel comfortable around a trans man that looks like Buck Angel? Would you expect a trans woman who has been on puberty blockers, lifelong hormones and top and bottom surgery to be anywhere near safe in a mens' unit? If you're a reasonable person without a transphobic agenda, the obvious answer to those questions is no. Because sex essentialism doesn't work in every case.

Does that also mean though that every case should be judged on self ID alone? Hardly, in my opinion. And implying as much leads to situations like we have now, where NS U-turning on the Isla Bryson case was even needed to be a U-Turn or moral argument in the first place. Because she knows it's a representation of the whole gender ideology debate. Human beings should not be held up as ideological concepts! Dehumanising people and treating demographics as homogenous groups will always come at the cost of individuals on both sides of the coin.

There are women in jail for murdering their husbands. Their children. For all sorts of horrible crimes. Women are just as fucking evil as men if not more.

Yes there are. But there are far fewer of them than there are men in jail for murdering their wives or their children, or for rape.

So, while segregating by sex obviously isn't going to do anything about the risk to women from other women, it takes away the risk to women from men. And that is still worth doing. And then with that big risk out of the way, women's prisons can focus on the risk between women.

But I'm also realistic - at 5ft 1 and weighing about 8 stone, with female musculature, upper body strength and power, when she beat my brother with a metal bar from the airing cupboard she caused severe bruising. The same level of effort and aggression from a male could well have killed him*

Jesus Christ. Women can beat people to death with weapons too. The sad truth is most abusers don't intend to kill their victims and aim to "only" hurt their victims, and death results when they go too far. If someone is willing to beat someone with a metal pole they could absolutely kill them, it makes me sick to even have to write this.

Can we not excuse female violence? I genuinely don't see how that makes any positive contribution or argument. We all know how deadly men can be, we don't need to somehow quantify or lessen female violence in order to prove that men are dangerous. They are dangerous because statistically they are more likely to, for whatever reason, patriarchy, societal roles, genetics, be the ones in the position of power and dominance, and therefore be the ones handing out the beatings 🙁

It does not mean women are less capable, it's that they are less likely to do this. And no I'm not arguing them women are less strong, only that you don't have to be that strong to damage or kill someone if you are using weapons.

So again, can we please not minimise or excuse female violence? It is offensive to any victim or survivor of violence perpetuated by women and again, doing so is not necessary to acknowledge the capabilities and scope of male violence.

Misogyny is not okay or justifiable. I think you should step away from the thread for your own sake 🌻

Honestly? In my opinion and not aimed at anyone so don't delete please, this community does harbour a lot of transphobia and yes posters here do form an echo chamber so dissent and opinions against the grain of the board are often treated with derision and personal attacks even when valid points are made. There are much better and safer communities out there, I wouldn't give your energy and time to these boards.

Again, the assumption that we just don't understand

A female is a female regardless of which parts have been removed or added on. A male likewise remains male. That is the whole point - no GC woman would ever argue that a woman who has had a full hysterectomy is not a woman - that is a false equivalence you are more likely to hear from TRAs.

A transman - mtf for clarity- is still female. Testosterone does not turn them in to a male.

Your sex is written in to every cell in your body and it doesn't change.

And I'm familiar with violent mothers, having one myself. But I'm also realistic - at 5ft 1 and weighing about 8 stone, with female musculature, upper body strength and power, when she beat my brother with a metal bar from the airing cupboard she caused severe bruising. The same level of effort and aggression from a male could well have killed him.

Transitioning doesn't remove the differences caused by sex - and most transwomen do not undergo medical or surgical transition.

I wish my dad was still alive and not her.

It is Russell Findlay who makes sense:

We need to see the SPS’s new policy about these issues without delay. The safety of females in custody and prison staff must be the primary consideration, not the rights of dangerous criminals.”

This man sounds insane.

Lean on your strawman argument all you want, f this was just about an individual case, you wouldn't be saying the kind things I'm seeing here

@Idwtlotpam I understand where you're coming from 🌸

I don't believe that someone like Andrew Burns should be in a women's prison or in any women's places. However I do understand what you mean about cases like these being used as a justification for much more generalised transphobia.

twitter.com/HighImpactFlix/status/1610033960049860614

I take artificial estrogen because I had a complete hysterectomy/oopherectomy at age 36 - am I no longer female in your eyes?

You are getting your arguments in a muddle here - we’re the people who say chopping off your knob just makes you into a knobless chap, so of course we don’t think a hysterectomy makes a woman into anything other than a woman who has had a hysterectomy!

Humans can’t change sex.
If you were born female, you’ll die female.

Unable FFS!

I'm sorry you were beaten by your mother.
But that doesn't mean all women are horrible and all men are great.

These men have committed horrible violent acts (sorry but very much worse than your mother did to you from what you have disclosed) and you are suggesting they share cells with female prisoners who are very very unlikely to be able to defend themselves. You know how that feels, and again, I'm sorry that happened to you. But please extend your compassion to the female prisoners.

Of course you're not less female because of your hysterectomy.