Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Illuminating and disturbing view from a psychologist

147 replies

beastlyslumber · 27/01/2023 22:02

meghanmurphy.substack.com/p/how-do-you-become-a-psychopath-jon#details

Wondered if anyone else has listened to this? I thought his comments about the seriousness and significance of pornography were spot on and something that should be brought up more often.

OP posts:
Datun · 29/01/2023 13:43

There was a newspaper article about teen boys wondering why the girls they were having sex with weren't crying. Because violent porn.

And an Italian study where adolescent boys couldn't maintain an erection with their girlfriends because they were so desensitised by porn that regular sex wasn't arousing enough to even get an erection.

beastlyslumber · 29/01/2023 13:42

I don't think it's talking/not talking about CSA that determines whether a victim becomes an abuser. I do understand that when a child is deeply wounded and can't recover, they build a fantasy self that they hide behind and this is what is known as Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Such individuals may well go on to abuse others, including their own children, in order to defend their false persona.

All psychopaths and sociopaths are narcissistic, but I don't think they are 'created' in the same way as people with NPD.

I think that Uhler is right that psychopathy is essentially a deviance of the soul and a form of evil. He does use faith-based language and I feel that is a correct language for this. Psychopathy is the lack of conscience and getting pleasure/satisfaction from harming others. It's arguably clear that some people are born like this. I think this next part is a bit confusing, but I'm pretty sure he's also arguing that that men can unleash or develop psychopathy through increasing deviancy, starting with 'normal' porn and then progressing through to more and more evil forms of pornography and abuse. I think he's saying that paedophilia isn't a sexual orientation (I completely agree) but a form of deviancy that men develop through increasing pornography use. And then he's equating paedophilia with psychopathy, so in essence saying a man can become a psychopath through using porn.

I might have to listen again to understand if that's what he's actually arguing. I totally agree with the part about paedophilia being a form of deviance, not a natural variation. And I also agree that harming children is psychopathic behaviour. So I think I probably agree with him, if that's what he's saying.

OP posts:
Thelnebriati · 29/01/2023 13:36

''He seems to be saying that a "normal" man can degrade to psychopathy via progressive loss of conscience.''

I don't think that would hold true for every man; but then I don't think society has ever had such violent porn so easily available.

mach2 · 29/01/2023 13:30

Ok, listened to the whole thing. He varies from what I've previously heard about psychopathy. My understanding was that it stems from one or the other, or a combination of, genetics and environment. He seems to be saying that a "normal" man can degrade to phycopathy via progressive loss of conscience. It's a new one on me and I've no idea of how true it may be.

Porn - I've heard second-hand anecdotal stuff about girls and young women experiencing disturbing behaviour from boys and men that can only have come from internet porn. A guy I worked with took the precaution of talking to his young son about it and warning him that he would likely see stuff that was a perversion of normal sexual relations with women.

I'm not sure that porn will corrupt everyone who views it. I'm old enough to remember the video nasties panic. I thought then, and do so now, that those who were already predisposed to violence would use it to feed their tendencies but on their own would not corrupt a well-balanced adult.

But then again, the sheer intensity and availability that high speed internet gives may shift the balance point.

Thelnebriati · 29/01/2023 13:00

I can easily believe that many abusive adults were neglected as children; or that their development was neglected. Many parents seem to think that children just grow up without needing any input. Neglect can affect us as adults as surely as abuse does.
But I think many experts want to believe we are born as emotional blank slates, and I don't. Humans have an inbuilt personality traits that cause a predisposition to perceive events a certain way; so two people can go through the same event and react to it in very different ways. In an ideal society, responsible adults would help us navigate developmental stages in a more mindful way.

Rollingaroundinmud · 29/01/2023 12:50

mach2 · 29/01/2023 12:29

I've listened to a bit of it. Two things that jar with me are "men are designed to be chivalrous" and the "good people like us" bit.

I'd have to ask are men - or women - "designed" at all, never mind a late mediaeval code. And my antennae always go up when a person advertises their own goodness.

I'll listen to the rest through my chores but I have nowhere near the knowledge to critically evaluate it but I'll listen.

👍

CompleteGinasaur · 29/01/2023 12:39

I must admit that the "murmurings of agreement" in the pp's final flounce did amuse me - our low, soft ineffectual women's voices, our inability to handle proper, manly, robust intellectual confrontation. When they show you who they misogynistically are, believe them..

Rollingaroundinmud · 29/01/2023 12:33

My experience growing up. He was abused as a child and it was his choices after that affected me when I was a child. He didn’t know right from wrong.

mach2 · 29/01/2023 12:29

I've listened to a bit of it. Two things that jar with me are "men are designed to be chivalrous" and the "good people like us" bit.

I'd have to ask are men - or women - "designed" at all, never mind a late mediaeval code. And my antennae always go up when a person advertises their own goodness.

I'll listen to the rest through my chores but I have nowhere near the knowledge to critically evaluate it but I'll listen.

beastlyslumber · 29/01/2023 12:15

I think you are wrong about that. Victims of CSA don't become abusers from not talking about the abuse they experienced. I've never heard anything to suggest that would be the case. What makes you think that @Rollingaroundinmud ?

OP posts:
Rollingaroundinmud · 29/01/2023 11:02

NoSweat · 29/01/2023 10:31

The abused becoming abusers narrative adds to the stigma of victims and stops them speaking out.

The victims who speak out know right from wrong it might take them years but they talk. Victims who don’t carry on that cycle of abuse and oppression. Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

beastlyslumber · 29/01/2023 10:50

NoSweat · 29/01/2023 10:31

The abused becoming abusers narrative adds to the stigma of victims and stops them speaking out.

Yes, such an important point.

OP posts:
NoSweat · 29/01/2023 10:31

beastlyslumber · 29/01/2023 08:28

Another point I was interested in from the discussion is when he talked about how it's not true that abusers were abused - the "cycle of abuse" idea. I've long suspected that this is nonsense as every person I know who has survived CSA has become a defender and protector of abuse victims. Uhler says in his experience, child abusers use this as a story to get sympathy and leniency.

The abused becoming abusers narrative adds to the stigma of victims and stops them speaking out.

Boiledbeetle · 29/01/2023 09:30

Cute names! Whose, I mean any baby names picked out?

beastlyslumber · 29/01/2023 09:20

Boiledbeetle · 29/01/2023 09:11

@beastlyslumber admit it OP your shagging the guy in the recording, your his agent and you are pregnant with his third child

Busted. Damn it. Might as well come clean and tell you the other two children are Posie Parker and Glinner.

OP posts:
Boiledbeetle · 29/01/2023 09:17

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Boiledbeetle · 29/01/2023 09:14

Datun · 29/01/2023 09:11

Do people really not understand that if you vehemently tell someone not to watch a podcast because reasons, they are inadvertently adding something to the guy's credibility rather than undermine it?

Ironic really on a thread about psychology.

well some people believe we should just accept a man saying they are a woman with no further critical thought..so...?

Datun · 29/01/2023 09:14

beastlyslumber · 29/01/2023 09:09

This is such a childish comment I'm not sure it warrants any kind of response. But if anyone wonders about me, I've been Beastly on here for quite some time now and it's very easy to look up my posting history.

It was so bizarre, I assumed the poster didn't know what petulant actually meant.

beastlyslumber · 29/01/2023 09:13

Boiledbeetle · 29/01/2023 09:09

1/10 for the flounce

Must try harder

I mean Robin at least insinuated we were witches.

Yes, very low effort flounce.

For you, Beetz:

Flowers

OP posts:
Datun · 29/01/2023 09:11

Do people really not understand that if you vehemently tell someone not to watch a podcast because reasons, they are inadvertently adding something to the guy's credibility rather than undermine it?

Ironic really on a thread about psychology.

Boiledbeetle · 29/01/2023 09:11

@beastlyslumber admit it OP your shagging the guy in the recording, your his agent and you are pregnant with his third child

beastlyslumber · 29/01/2023 09:09

Poonicorn · 29/01/2023 00:52

OP you seem very invested in this guy. Are you him?

You are also coming across as entitled and petulant. A very different posting style to most of the women on this forum. I will say no more...

This is such a childish comment I'm not sure it warrants any kind of response. But if anyone wonders about me, I've been Beastly on here for quite some time now and it's very easy to look up my posting history.

OP posts:
Boiledbeetle · 29/01/2023 09:09

1/10 for the flounce

Must try harder

I mean Robin at least insinuated we were witches.

Boiledbeetle · 29/01/2023 09:07

CandlelightGlow · 29/01/2023 08:54

I can tell by your excellent points which back up in an evidenced way what your mate on the podcast is saying 🙂👏

You mean the parts were I agree with things he said due to my observations from my actual lived experiences?

I mean there wasnt people there doing scientific studies whilst the abuse happened or the photos etc were taken, which have led my to find some of what this guy says to be in the money.

So shucks not much i can do about that especially as this is a discussion thread about his words not a fact finding statistical analysis thread.

and I did actually take you're very useful advice the other day. You said if I didn't like your post to report it. So I did and they deleted ones I hadn't even pointed out to them.

Thanks for the advice it was much appreciated.

beastlyslumber · 29/01/2023 09:06

DontdothisDothat · 29/01/2023 00:49

I have already mentioned the work of Hare and there are other many psychologists & neuroscientists who have published well controlled, experimental work on psychopathy. If you do a Google search, you can find them: Raine, Belafoutas, Cleckley, Semple, Cooke & Michie, Skeem. You can find the papers yourself. I’m not a teacher.

Yes, but what exactly do those researchers say that is different to what Uhler is saying? I mean, he mentions Hare and other researchers in the interview - is he misrepresenting their research? If so, in what way? What is it that Uhler is saying that you think he's got wrong?

If you can't answer that, then all you're doing is saying, "He's wrong? Why? Because I said so." I'm not sure why we would take your word for it.

And no, definitely don't go into teaching. You do not have any of the necessary qualities or character.

OP posts: