Onlyfans - good or bad for feminism?

I dont think anyone hete us suggesting that women on OF should be viewed as fallen women.

A sector of society does see it that way though. Why do you think that might be? It's almost as if patriarchy uses sex as another way to oppress women...therefore supporting a company that so blatantly promotes patriarchy, while saying that society should just somehow change for the better (become less judgemental), without any of us taking positive action, doesn't really make sense.

I felt pretty oppressed and not at all empowered when I chose a job cleaning public toilets

I felt happy i was getting paid the adult rate of pay considering I was only 14.

So the real problem is that men might treat some women as if they are the kind of women they pay to watch do sex acts; and not that men might pay women to do sex acts in the first place?

The whole “Victorian moral code” you speak of was part and parcel of the huge explosion in prostitution during the nineteenth century (and other early bits of the sex industry, like pornographic photographs and stage shows). Women were judged on their sexual worth, precisely on whether they were a sex object/body for general hire; or an “owned” woman who was the sex object of only one man.

The root of the problem is the commodification of women as objects. You don’t have one without the other. If men see women as bodies to wank to on a computer screen, they are going to regard the women they use as wank fodder as lesser beings. They always have done. It’s not feminists doing this, is it? Feminists don’t want women to be used as objects in the first place.

I cannot think of any sort of genuine feminism which applauds men first objectifying women, and then judging them for that objectification. That’s what the patriarchy has done since time immemorial.

You can assume the usually sensible poster who wrote the post knew more than she wrote. I very much doubt no verification had happened at any point.

The fact is willing or victim. Just known about or losing job worthy the effect on the woman is usually all the same.

I think you've misunderstood: the poster upthread said the woman was moved onto a different team, not sacked. She didn't lose her career!

A lot of jobs have clauses in their contact about not bringing your employer into disrepute with your actions. Your employer does get a say in your extra curricular activities if it will look bad for them (similarly also working for a competitor is usually frowned upon).

The judgement issue is any interesting one. I don't see 'Victorian judgement' in most of these replies. I think you will find a lot of judgement from the men that buy sex though. Do you think they respect the women whose bodies they bought?

I think you’re debating with several posters at once here as you have written this response as if I had said those things about OF. I don’t think OF is empowering, and also don’t think it has to be or should be empowering. I don’t think everything on OF is degrading. I have no issue with men or women being objects of sexual desire and capitalising on it for their own financial benefit.

I do think the judgement of women is far worse and more damaging than women using OF to make some money. If all it takes is scurrilous gossip to take away a woman’s career, her means to earn a professional living, then we have not progressed beyond the Victorian “fallen woman” moral code. Women who go on OF should not be viewed as damaged goods unable to even do back office things like statistical analysis. It’s fear of moral contamination. “Won’t be taken seriously” “the client won’t like it” are pathetic excuses for rank sexism towards women for not keeping their reputation sexually pure.

The judgement of it is what is terrible. That is what materially oppresses women- the harsh societal punishment that follows if you go on OF or are even alleged to have done so.

Thank you for the hint, but as I am sure you know there is no one orthodox “proper feminism.”

This is an exceptionally daft argument, @AuntSallie. So: people judging a woman on rumours of being in online porn is such a terrible, serious thing that it “matters for all women”. Yet the degrading of women in online porn, the depiction of women as sexual objects to be used, and the selling of this to naive young women as empowerment doesn’t “matter for all women”? It’s “neutral”?

You can’t have it both ways. If it’s a terrible thing for all of us that we might be judged on rumours about sex; then it’s a far worse one for all women to be judged by how much they are fuckable sex objects for men wanking.

It might, in fact (whisper it softly), even be part of the exact same terrible thing.

Hint: go and look up “patriarchy” in a good introduction to proper feminism. You might find it an enlightenment….

@postcardpuffin
That was quite the manifesto. But then I don’t expect all choices for earning money to be empowering or to also free me or others from oppression.

I felt pretty oppressed and not at all empowered when I chose a job cleaning public toilets. Cleaning up shit & vomit smeared walls & floors was just a job, it wasn’t meant to be a feminist act to empower me or fight back against oppression. My choice to clean public toilets, similarly didnt impact other women in the sense that it did not perpetuate some societal view that women are just dogsbodies who clean up mens shit and vomit. And even if it did, so what? It’s not the individuals responsibility to keep their job choices politically pure and only do work that advances feminism.

Women just want the freedom to make some cash how they choose without it being judged as some sort of political activism and for how empowering it is or isn’t.

You do know that by your logic everyone who goes to work, is therefore complicit in the oppression of the working class?

Thats a lot of baggage to dump on women. They’re not responsible for our oppression and choosing to not go or to go on OF isnt going to change womens rights, status or empowerment one iota.

If this is empowerment feminism has completely failed.

Don’t you think women know that which is why a lot of OF content is focused on parts other than their face. There was an item online the other day where a student made £15k a month by selling pics of her fanny, “sailing her pink canoe “. I guess the danger comes when they see it has more than just paying their student fees and convince themselves that it’s a career choice.

Of course it matters. Talented and hardworking women should not be moved off teams and have their professional career go down the pipe because “someone at the client” said she was on Pornhub without even talking to her first!

If it only takes a rumour that you were on OF (or Pornhub) to destroy your career with you none the wiser, then what is the point in avoiding OF? Doesn’t matter if you do it or not, all that matters is whether someone decides to allege that you did.

So yes, it matters how the poster and her colleague handled this situation. It matters for all women.

🙌🏼

Anything that involves providing titilation for men using your body is anything but empowering.
The world is always trying to modernise and advance, womens rights etc and yet things like onlyfans are allowed to exist.

You see, mumsnet is the font of good advice.

Does it matter? As an example it works fine.

This had happened to many women. Don't try to pull a part one story when you know some quick internet searching will show you the truth.

And no I'm not searching Thank You very much.

How is what a woman chooses impacting any other women?

Participating in and perpetuating an industry that commodifies women as just bodies for sex and wanking and men’s purchase, and that treats women like a meat market of wank fodder rather than human beings, impacts on us all. It normalises treating women that way and shores up misogyny and sexism throughout society.

The fact that women and girls are valued less, thought of as sex objects, treated badly sexually (and in general) by men and male systems, and are subject to disproportionate amounts of male violence and male sexual violence, is intimated connected to the widespread normalisation of the sex industry. It always has been.

Being complicit in your own oppression is not empowerment. Giving the system the tools to oppress you and dehumanise you is not freedom — even if you think you do it freely. Many choices we make are bad for us, or harm society in general. This particular choice harms women and girls — and children and families — more than most.

Don’t kid yourself with choicey-choicey faux-feminism that all choices are empowering. We all know they aren’t; and anyone who pretends to be the cool girl/wife who is super cool with pornography and the sex industry is kidding themselves at best; disingenuous and in bad faith at worst.

We all know that OnlyFans isn’t just a bit of foot pictures and harmless posing in pretty underwear for adoring men, and anyone who claims to think so is deluded or exceptionally naive. The women who make actual money from it are performing live sex acts to order on camera, for subscribers who want something more titillating than you get on pornhub. It’s sticking objects up yourself or filming your arsehole in closeup for some bloke for a few quid, who might at any time be sending the screenshots anywhere he likes. It’s not glamorous and it’s not empowering for anyone; it’s seedy and perpetuates the degrading of women we see all over our culture, with men increasingly from early teens onwards thinking women are there just as holes to spaff on, hit and choke.

If you think it’s some kind of “neutral” activity, all about a kind of Instagram lifestyle, I’ve got a bridge to sell you, too.

I'd advise against doing this if only for the fact that your images once posted are out of your control. I don't know much about OF but see it popping up on strange news articles with headlines 'my sideline earns me £3k a month so I've given up my accountancy career'. When I've clicked on it I have to read through a load of drivel before the reveal of what the sideline actually is. They feel like an advertising ploy rather than a genuine news article.

@OnceUponAWar
My colleague had a young, very talented, and very hard working woman on his client team. And, as it turned out, said youngster had previously ended up on the internet (not OF but PornHub). Needless to say: someone at the client found out.

Was the woman even asked about it? Pornhub is known for revenge porn and deepfake porn. She may be a victim, and now is being penalised for it.

Was this verified or a rumour? Gossip that she was in Pornhub may have been a complete fabrication engineered to ruin her career.

Just sitting here wishing I was as articulate as @NotBadConsidering

All this empowerment bollocks - Feminism isn't about the individual, it's about all women.

Pan out from your own unique wants & needs and acknowledge that our actions affect other women & girls.

We all make choices, but don't kid yourself that OF and porn - while 'empowering' on an individual basis for the beautiful 22 year old paying off a loan - doesn't perpetuate the gross isea that women's value is tied to how much a man wants to fuck them.

Agree, boiled.

but still. I see him

Isn't it just.

They could at least pretend to be interested.