Women's rights general conversations - Thread 3

Neutrois? Okay, just looked it up and it is a real word although it's also another gender word soup piss take. I read the full stonewall trans definition a couple or so years ago and it turned out I was trans without knowing it because the umbrella is so large it could cover Wembley stadium.

And there was something from one of the barristers, I think from the TRA side, for want of a better term, who referred to "part-time cross-dressers" IIRC.

Part time cross dresser was term used by Maya Forstater to describe Phillip/Pippa Bunce after he was named as one of the top 100 women in business

twitter.com/mforstater/status/1501139446359601153?

www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/gender-fluid-exec-named-on-list-of-top-100-women-in-business-a3942896.html

The phrase was put forward at her tribunal as an example of her discriminatory language, and but this was countered by pointing out that Stonewall includes cross-dressers under its definition of trans.

Trans
An umbrella term to describe people whose gender is not the same as, or does not sit comfortably with, the sex they were assigned at birth.
Trans people may describe themselves using one or more of a wide variety of terms, including (but not limited to) transgender, transsexual, gender-queer (GQ), gender-fluid, non-binary, gender-variant, crossdresser, genderless, agender, nongender, third gender, bi-gender, trans man, trans woman, trans masculine, trans feminine and neutrois.

www.stonewall.org.uk/list-lgbtq-terms

www.theguardian.com/society/2022/jul/06/maya-forstater-was-discriminated-against-over-gender-critical-beliefs-tribunal-rules

You could start a thread on this board, I mean, I wouldn't do it on AIBU

There are lots of threads which deal with this, you could try a search, or you could start one, lots of people here will have the sources for those data. I don't right now but I do somewhere.

Thanks @Ereshkigalangcleg

I think the 80% figure is from a survey asking people if they intended to have the surgery in the future. Only 20% said yes.

3-post ment.

Any views on posting my question on MN more widely, i.e. not just here? Or I guess I could ask Helen Joyce through twitter, but I don't know how to do that.

Up to now there has been very little robust statistical data involving population figures because there is no clear definition of what constitutes "trans". At its widest point it's the whole "umbrella" which also includes part time cross dressers, as well as people who don't meaningfully claim to live as the opposite sex but identify as "non binary"/"genderfluid"/"agender".

However we now have the census figures for those who answered the question. So then it comes down to which of those figures to use.

But what we do know is that of all the people who fall under the "trans umbrella" only a tiny minority have genital surgery (less than 5% the last time any figures were submitted to the 2016 trans inquiry by the government).

@nepeta many thanks for that critique of the neuro study, which was spot on.

Thanks to @Britinme and others who responded to my question about segments within the transwomen population. It does seem difficult to get these data, if they even exist.

Something I've seen a lot refers to the proportion of transwomen who are fully biologically male, not on a pathway of transition beyond costumery. I've seen a figure of 80% here but I've no idea of its origin. Perhaps testimony at one of the tribunals or court cases? And there was something from one of the barristers, I think from the TRA side, for want of a better term, who referred to "part-time cross-dressers" IIRC. Perhaps the same barrister?

Sorry to go on about this. It just seems such an enormous gap in our understanding. To take an example from elsewhere, there have been a great many studies of culture in the NHS, where beliefs, experiences, attitudes and behaviours are examined. I don't think I've ever seen a respectable one that does not segment the findings according to role, profession, length of service and essential demographics. And then, of course, you can test for heterogeneity and pool where there isn't any. Surely somebody, somewhere must be making an attempt at this? Or is it a career-ending area for the nonce?

Indeed, I get the impression that many American far-right representatives have far more in common with the genderists than they have with (2nd wave) feminists and I would like to see that called out. Instead there seems to be a very muddled situation of mutually opposed ideologies being adopted by people thinking of themselves as 'left' or 'right'.

And no debate feeds that by preventing people from taking a close look at what is really there.

@DeanVolecapeAKAelderberry - he's ultra-right American speaking at the American CPAC meeting. I agree with you about gender ideology, but I think you may be missing the point of his speech. He isn't arguing for the kind of freedom from stereotyping you're talking about but about things like banning men from presenting in a stereotypically "feminine" way associated with transwomen (and I assume the same with transmen).

This goes counter to the Libertarian streak that underpins most right-wing conservatism in the US, in which people should be free to do whatever they want with their bodies. Of course we then come smack up against the question of conflicting rights.

I don't know Micheal Knowles (and if he is ultra right wing can't imagine having much in common with him) and don't know what he means by 'transgenderism' or 'public life' but I see eradicating genderism as entirely positive.

It's a belief system that is homophobic, misogynist, rooted in enforcing conformity to sex-role stereotypes. It pathologises neurodiversity, encourages some people with mental health issues to undergo unnecessary and deeply damaging (though very profitable for a pharma industry that took a dip after the opiates scandal) 'treatments' and surgery. It forces women to abandon safe spaces hard-won over centuries in order to indulge other people with mental health issues. And cheers on the exhibitionists and fetishists and voyeurs riding in with them.

It is a source of much human misery, particularly female misery, since keeping women 'in their place' is at the heart of the ideology. No wonder it's popular in Iran, as a way (involuntary) of letting gay men survive but marking them as inferior. Only gay men - there's no way Iranian women can gain male status by transitioning. Apart from giving a lot of academics something to write about, and making money for pharma, has nothing to justify its continued existence.

Lesbians - lets encourage them to be happy and safe. Men who want to wear dresses, adopt traditional women's name, have sex with or marry other men - hooray, good for them.

No-one can change sex, and gender is not a real thing.

Exactly Britinme.

Hadley outlines the hopeful signs:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/defe3100-bab5-11ed-bdd5-81355e256dff?shareToken=df9b013479ba4c199f5885835fa3f9255_

And yet we still have to push back against the ultra-right-wing idiots like Michael Knowles in the US, who said to much applause at the CPAC conference that "there can be no middle way in dealing with transgenderism. ... Transgenderism must be eradicated from public life entirely."

This is plainly neither desirable nor going to happen, and does smack of persecution, but is so easily conflated with opposition to self-ID and the effect on women's sex-based rights.

Re good trans/bad trans, it's a different sort of good/bad but I caught up with an episode of Antisocial on BBC Sounds yesterday about trans women and women's prisons. They have people from both sides and it's all about polite debate. I had heard the trans woman on a previous episode. Preamble over.

They talked about Isla Bryson and a couple of others, percentage of alleged trans women prisoners who are violent and often sex offenders. The trans woman said that prison is not kind to sex offenders and that she thought that these men were pretending in order to get out of men's prisons. No shit Sherlock. Obviously, I agree but think that it's not just about escaping the male estate but to specifically gain access to the female estate. I don't think she realised quite what she was admitting. She could see, as most of us "bigots" can that if you go along the be kind/of course you're a woman path we invite predators and men who get off on pretending to be women for sexual pleasure into female places and that is what we're arguing. The trans woman didn't get that if it's happening in prisons it's also happening outside prisons and the things that will never happen have been and are happening. She's in favour of self ID and also thinks that there are men who pretend. She didn't manage to see the issue and as it was polite debate wasn't pushed hard. If cognitive dissonance was a sound the noise would have been deafening.

Thanks @nepeta .

funnelfan · Today 12:41
If asked by a man, I explain it by pointing out all of the encouraging noises they make about women keeping themselves safe (unattended drinks, getting taxis, stick together etc), because a small number of men are “bad”, and we can’t tell a “bad” man from looking at them. Why does that rule suddenly change at the gym, at the swimming pool, in the changing room, on a hospital ward. How does a man saying the magic words “I am a woman” guarantee he is not one of the small number of “bad” men? I’ve not had an answer to that one yet. Lots of bluffing, harrumphing, changing of the subject and whataboutery though.

Given funnel’s excellent words, perhaps some women reading, and any men they know whom they can persuade to back them up, might be interested in this: (It guarantees privacy).
www.mumsnet.com/talk/petitions_noticeboard/4722618-petition-to-update-the-equality-act-thread-2

Ignore comment from the Gov. on the site that all is well. It misses the point about discrimination litigation threats to sex based spaces, due to lack of clarity about sex being biological in the various related laws permitting those spaces. This has had a chilling effect.

This is one response to the study which is relevant:
sillyolme.wordpress.com/2022/10/30/gaming-transsexual-brain-sex-research/

The problem it discusses has to do with gay men having certain discernible differences in their brains when compared to heterosexual men which could be interpreted as gay men's brains sharing certain aspects with heterosexual women, probably having to do with sexual orientation.

The study you link to has 6 trans women out of 24 attracted to men and the rest (18) attracted to women. The group they were compared to consist of 24 women and 24 men who are described as 'cis'. Here's the problem this causes:

It is extremely unlikely that the control group of 24+24 'cis' people would have a quarter gay and Lesbian people. Given the actual prevalence of homosexuality in the society the likely number could be as low as one person or none.

So when the researchers do their comparisons, they are comparing a group with a quarter gay people to a group which might have far fewer gay and Lesbian people or even none.

They don't do the analyses separately for those trans women who stated that they were heterosexual, and this means that their findings could be driven by the large number of gay people in the trans woman sample and not being trans at all.

This means that their findings may just be the old one which shows that gay men have some similarities with in their brains with the brains of heterosexual women. So the jury is still very much out on this.

What an odd comparison?!!??! Racism is against segregation?

On the rugby thing - I’m Welsh and this infuriated me. I’ve just written to both those ministers expressing my concern about their views and setting out the practical reasons why sex matters I. Sport. Honestly. What numpty thinks women can go up against biological men on the pitch, ffs?

Raises hand. But what strikes me is that the most egregious examples of sexual harassment that I endured was, like PPs, in public. Walking down the street at rush hour (flashing/masturbating/talking), at a gig (groped in the tight crowd), on the train in an empty carriage (threatening sexual talk/harassment by a group of men egging each other on).

A lot of the public discourse is around semi private areas such as toilets and changing rooms. But women have had to practice situational awareness in public ever since we were old enough to be allowed out of the house without our parents, and it’s not just about getting home safely late at night. Public transport at any time of day. Walking to our car in a quiet car park. Getting in a lift. Hundreds of times a day we have to assess and judge a situation, most of the times subconsciously, and we are extremely experienced at spotting whether the figure in our peripheral vision is a man. And adjusting our actions to ensure our safety.

it frustrates me no end that people can’t see this context and acknowledge that accepting men into the semi-private single sex areas blasts straight through all of this safeguarding. If asked by a man, I explain it by pointing out all of the encouraging noises they make about women keeping themselves safe (unattended drinks, getting taxis, stick together etc), because a small number of men are “bad”, and we can’t tell a “bad” man from looking at them. Why does that rule suddenly change at the gym, at the swimming pool, in the changing room, on a hospital ward. How does a man saying the magic words “I am a woman” guarantee he is not one of the small number of “bad” men? I’ve not had an answer to that one yet. Lots of bluffing, harrumphing, changing of the subject and whataboutery though.

and the gropers. Kuci's story isn't untypical, but in my experience growing breasts was regarded as an invitation by far too many men - walking down the street with their pals, oh look, here comes a pair of breasts, lets rub them, ha ha ha!

Long before online porn was thing. Poor kids today.

@angelico53 I think there is a third group as well, which is genuinely men whose brains are more like women's and who wish to alter their bodies accordingly. There is some research on this but it needs somebody more sciency than me to parse out the results, and it is a small study.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8955456/