Women's rights general conversations - Thread 3

I read the first thread on that at the time, and completed the second just now. Gotta say, that is some sterling work by the OP there, with excellent MN support.

This was the thread. @Vebrithien wrote an excellent letter which she spent ages thinking about. The issue is not identical, but related as are a lot of advice and links on her two threads. She must still be waiting for a reply.

^Sex not gender, No Outsiders changing the Equality Act, DepHead/DSL captured*

127 replies
Vebrithien · 01/02/2023 12:51
Well, here we are, with a whole new thread!

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4713725-please-help-gender-not-sex-on-a-school-protected-characteristics-poster-just-spoken-to-the-head?page=10&reply=123546552

Can't remember the exact thread title for that but it mentions No Outsiders. It's mainly about the problematic nature of that specific organisation, but there are some useful links to sources that can be referenced in more general letters.

Interesting question! I’m gonna guess “yes”, this will continue, it feels too big to peter out naturally and embarrassedly.

Something I wonder about (in fact I wondered if there was a thread in it) is, is this pronoun stuff here to stay? Or will it all be forgotten about in 20 years time? It's not just in English, but every language apparently. I'd like to see the back of it, but are we way past that point now? What do people think will happen?

bignosebignose · Today 06:55
Our local primary school has been teaching 9 year olds not to use “wrong” pronouns for their “non-cisgender” classmates and also teaching them all about the fine EA protected characteristic of Gender Identity.

Have you considered broaching the wrongness of this with the school? There has been another thread recently by a mother who has written to her primary school age daughter’s school. She must be still waiting to hear back. If you are interested someone could find it, as there is all sorts of useful information there.

Apparently there was a hearing in relation to Giggle v Tickle today. I wonder how this would go down in the UK?

twitter.com/WomensForumAust/status/1626353105108635648

Our local primary school has been teaching 9 year olds not to use “wrong” pronouns for their “non-cisgender” classmates and also teaching them all about the fine EA protected characteristic of Gender Identity.

I think this must fall under Badenoch's "teaching contested theory as fact".

You may be astonished to hear that the entire team was a screenful of male/pale/stale He/Hims.

That must have upset the Faculty. If only 52% of them had been persuaded to self-pronoun into the She/Her category, they could have claimed to be fully representative.

A lot of people in my worlplace have pronouns in their email signatures. I don't and nonoe has ever raised it with me in the two years I have been there.

TBH it is not really a political statement from me, I just happen to think email signatures are practical information peices and should contain your name, job title, organisation name and email/phone number and that is it. I also don't add any corporate slogans or links to the lastest news relase/shiny thing or whatever bollocks the comms department periodically try and get us to add.

Another American is hauled over the coals for pretending to be someone they're not:

theintercept.com/2023/02/16/american-friends-service-committee-raquel-saraswati/

Lipstick and nail varnish: good; fake tan: bad.

With a useful summary of other cases. Childishly, I find it all hilarious.

Kuc in answer to your question about what I should do if faced with the pronouns question, I had decided to ignore it and not make any statement. But the question didn't arise, possibly because the meeting was 25% civil servants, 75% commercial.

I'd be interested in a book club. Holly Lawford-Smith's book, for instance, has lots of food for thought and debate. And all the earlier books (Joyce, Stock etc.) could be discussed together, perhaps, or by a topic?

Our local primary school has been teaching 9 year olds not to use “wrong” pronouns for their “non-cisgender” classmates and also teaching them all about the fine EA protected characteristic of Gender Identity.

Sets font to Green CAPS

Yeah, wrong place for those chants. I do wonder if they'll try to "let's go Brandon" it.

That's just awful. Where's the decency? But yeah, fuck Keir Starmer too.

Starmer trying to have it every which way has left him pretty much despised by both "sides". Now, I despise him for far more than this but know, without a shadow of a doubt, that I would not go to a vigil for a murdered teenager chanting "Fuck Kier Starmer". I'd happily chant it at a demonstration or outside the Houses of Parliament, but a vigil? No.

I'm interested but a slow reader these days. And an even slower listener! It takes me ages to get round to podcasts. If we can do it more slowly I'm in.

This is the nub of it, is it not, from the link posted by Crows upthread:* *

The words that refer to people’s biological, sexed realities —female, male, woman, man, girl, boy, mother, father, sister, brother, daughter, son, and all the rest—are taken. They are in use. They serve a useful purpose in every human society that uses them.

They are not available for appropriation and repurposing — not to mention, becoming taboo in the context of their former and commonly understood biological meanings.

Bit long for a tee shirt, but still...
And the next time some fool like Starmer is asked what a woman is, instead of stammering like it's a catch-question, he could be reminded.

Sorry, that was in reply to DeanVolecapeAKAelderberry · Today 16:22 who brought up the cow and the calf.

ScrollingLeaves · Today 14:29
So, for example, a man in the West might stereotypically be expected to be outspoken, professionally ambitious, and physically protective of his family

I think a man being physically protective of his family may not be ‘gender’ but quite primitive and instinctive, and based in his biology, even though some men will be less like this than others. This is where I diverge from GC.

Are women not physically protective of their families too though? Of their children at least. My GC question about 'would you rather go in a field with a bull in it or one with just cows?' always contains the proviso about not getting between a cow and her calf.

Women are, I agree with you, but I think for men and women it is each in their own way and in both it is biological/instinctive. And it is easier for a woman and her baby to be protected from stress rather than have to fight. I think a lot of new fathers feel a drive to protect, and weight of responsibility for, their families though they are not expected to so much any more.

Definitely a good idea and I'd love to be a part of it.

Yes, it's a good idea, but my reading speed has also slowed down. I don't know whether to blame age or lockdown, but do I think the dreariness of the latter killed a lot of brain cells in the "ability to focus" area.

I like the idea, and will join with good intentions but on past form I will struggle to keep pace. I used to be an avid reader, but am only averaging a book or two a month at present. Mid life exhaustion/brain fog plus the easier distractions of the internet have killed the book worm in me. Still read articles, and prefer reading text to e.g. video but my unread book pile is getting ever higher.

Yeah, I'll maybe start one a week before the release date of the first one to come out and let people get a copy etc. If it works, great, if not, it'll fall off, no harm done!