Owen Jones meltdown about gender ideology opposers COMMENTED.

My sense of self says that I’m 25 and can do whatever the fuck I want with my day.

Material reality says I’m 46 and my dogs, kids, chores for Monday, middle aged body, restricted financial budget and bicycle-only transport impose limitations on what my day will actually entail.

I expect we all have some level of fluctuating incongruence between our inner selves and our outer selves, but only this modern strain of transgender ideology demands society be rearranged to affirm the inner self of others, whereas the rest of us just learn to accept that outer material reality trumps internal feelings.

My 85 year old Nan, paralysed from the waist down due to a cancerous tumour pressing on her spinal cord and in hospice for end of life care, once sadly said,

“The thing is, Clog, I’m still seventeen in me ‘ead”

so I absolutely accept that an outer self and inner self that doesn’t match can be a very difficult and distressing thing.

Being sympathetic to that distress did not, however, make my elderly Nanna walk again, and nor will sympathy turn a man into a woman or a woman into a man.

And that’s not going to change, no matter how much Owen Jones believes it will.

The "sense of self" that transpeople have -if you believe in "truetrans" -comes from the impossible feat of feeling that you're something you can't physically, materially, be. No one can "have a sense of being" the opposite sex, because the opposite sex is fully external to each of us, and all we can know about it is external observation and our own reading of it, from outside.

I really think that people who argue that a trans person’s “sense of self” should be taken seriously should pause to consider the large overlap between the trans and furry communities. Or the ridiculous list of neogenders. Or the existence of narcissists. Or even the simple fact that being a bit deluded about yourself is the human condition (and that overcoming these delusions is how human beings mature and develop and become better people.)

Why is this one particular way of being wrong about yourself taken seriously to the point that it’s enshrined in law, with horrific but entirely predictable consequences?

(The answer is misogyny, of course, but they’ll never see the answer when they can’t even ask the question.)

Doing @mnhq doesn't send a message, you need to report the post to ask.

@MNHQ I would genuinely like to know what a Jungian perspective on this would be, please enlighten us as to why we can't read it

I honestly am amazed at that

The thing is, you just get a deletion with no explanation other than see the 'talk guidelines' which have a reference to transphobia - and I know there was no hatred of trans people in my post. I 100% know.

MN need to do better.

WOW !

Why did my post get deleted? I am genuinely shocked at that. There was no 'transphobia' in that post at all @MNHQ?

A male detransitioner wrote some time ago that he thought the percentage was between 60 and 70, but that in any case it seemed to him to be the most common reason for male transitioning.

On the alleged equivalence of gay-Lesbian and trans rights: The former didn't ask for any rights that would affect the lives of others (outside those whose religious beliefs clash with gay and Lesbian rights), the latter requires the removal of the female sex as a group which possesses shared concerns and needs political representation because of those concerns and the very common level of oppression of female people on the basis of sex.

The latter is deeply anti-feminist.

A parable may help: A homeless family needs a house, others in the village chip in with money, labour, and other resources.

This happens once, and the homeless family works hard, gets the house built, and settles down happily.

Then some time later this happens with a second homeless family, and, once again, others help with money, labour etc.

There is, however, a difference. This time the homeless family insists that the bricks for their house must come from the walls of certain of the existing houses. Nothing else is acceptable, no other bricks can be used.

And when the owners of those houses which have slowly disappearing walls complain, they are told off for being bigots who don't want homeless people to have any houses at all.

I love the sped up version! It reminds me of when people used to call him Sanctimonious Morph

This reply has been deleted
Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Do the talk guidelines suggest we refrain from discussing Jung? Really?

That's really interesting @hamstersarse.

Excellent post @hamstersarse. I think the Jungian perspective is very helpful in this present moment.

That's really interesting, @hamstersarse

Does anyone take him seriously? The only time I've heard him was in this Sundays pick of the week which featured him gabbling over Andrew Doyle who was trying to be civil - no idea now what point OJ was actually trying to make tbh.

‘Autogynaphilia, the feeling of sexual arousal some men feel as they pretend to be women, is according to some researchers behind many or even most cases of gender dysphoria among those born as men.’ - from Nick Timothy in the Telegraph 23/1/23

Ray Blanchard has suggested 75%

If it were simply, some people feel they are the opposite sex, and everyone should be kind, then third spaces would be absolutely acceptable (and it absolutely would be to many transsexuals). The difference is that there are now men for whom the performative element is the whole thing. They need a female audience who accept, or are forced to accept(not sure which is preferable) them as actual women

‘Autogynaphilia, the feeling of sexual arousal some men feel as they pretend to be women, is according to some researchers behind many or even most cases of gender dysphoria among those born as men.’ - from Nick Timothy in the Telegraph 23/1/23

"Is Owen Jones a proper journalist or just a youtuber who gets invited to write columns for the Guardian?"

What about when your self is co-opted by other people.
For instance if you self ID as a lesbian attracted to other females. Is that OK?

Jones was a print “journalist” long before he took to youtube. Popular youtubers can make decent money on it (so I'm told). Maybe he is concerned the Guardian might get weary of him eventually.

Very much this

The sense of self you have is something you cannot control - trans people have a sense of being in the wrong body and they cannot control it

There are many other groups which also have a disordered sense of self, which they can’t control. Many of those are certifiably or criminally insane.

This is a very helpful thread. Wish I had the patience to set out my arguments as other posters do.
Instead my posts often turn sarcastic and I usually bin them.

But then I've given up trying to argue with alt right libertarians and fundamentalist Christians too. Although they are less frightening than Owen Jones , who is meant to be my fellow socialist.

He's a tiresome, ranty, angry man. I have no idea why anyone takes him seriously. There are plenty of them to choose from.