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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Seeking straightforward answers to GRRBill question

59 replies

morningtoncrescent62 · 24/01/2023 14:15

I'll put my hands up at the outset to not being the most articulate person. I think I understand something, but when I'm asked, especially by someone who's hostile or borderline hostile, I tie myself up in knots.

Can anyone help me out with a clear, memorable answer to the question, "But what difference does it (the Scottish self-ID process) make to women's single-sex spaces, as you don't need a birth certificate to enter them"?

I've read a lot about this, and particularly the MurrayBlackburnMackenzie blogs which explain it all in detail. But in conversation, when I get asked that question, I struggle to marshall my thoughts and explain it clearly. To be fair, I've heard people being interviewed on the same question on TV in the last few days who've also struggled, or not answered it at all. Any ideas?

OP posts:
ScrollingLeaves · 24/01/2023 16:32

^Sonia Sodha Guardian Nov 2022
Sturgeon’s plans to reform gender law could leave Tories as the champions of women’s rights^

A small number of trans people in the UK – around 5,000 – have extra rights because they have applied for a gender recognition certificate (GRC) to change their sex for many legal purposes. Lawyers disagree on exactly what this means; the law is unclear. But many think that a GRC changes the threshold at which it is lawful to exclude someone male who identifies as a woman from female-only spaces, such as prisons, hospital wards, refuges and changing rooms. And most agree that increasing the number of males with GRCs would fundamentally shift how other Equality Act provisions to protect women, such as on equal pay, work.
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/nov/27/nicola-sturgeon-will-endanger-women-if-she-opens-single-sex-spaces-almost-everone

ScrollingLeaves · 24/01/2023 16:27

In this discussion, Sonia Sodha the journalist explained that she had seen expert legal opinion that getting a GRC changes the threshold for discriminating against someone on the basis of sex. That means it is less likely that you can say no to putting a transwoman with a GRC into a women’s prison.twitter.com/bbcpolitics/status/1612806209953992711/mediaviewer

I have not paraphrased that well but you could copy what she said exactly from the video.

maltravers · 24/01/2023 16:13

Until now, a man in a woman’s space could be challenged. This legislation blurs the boundary of what male bodied people can legitimately do in the eyes of the law/society. It makes it more difficult to challenge someone. Do your questioners think any man should be in a teenage girl’s showers/sports team/changing rooms/all girl’s school? If not there is a line to be drawn? Where and what is acceptable? This blurs the boundaries and makes it more difficult for women to object to invasion of their spaces/privacy/bodies.

jellyfrizz · 24/01/2023 15:53

Can anyone help me out with a clear, memorable answer to the question, "But what difference does it (the Scottish self-ID process) make to women's single-sex spaces, as you don't need a birth certificate to enter them"?

What about the spaces you DO need a birth cert for? Prisons, sports, scholarships..

Waitwhat23 · 24/01/2023 15:48

My question to people asking would be -

There are currently no single sex rape crisis groups in the Lothians. The one which is currently being set up (Beira's Place) has faced abuse and threats of challenges to them providing a single sex service, as they are entitled to do using the single sex exemptions in the EQA 2010. Given the confusion caused by the recent Haldane judgement, funding from the Scottish Government being contingent on organisations being 'inclusive' and the deliberate misadvising of organisations by political lobbying groups in order to obscure the legally allowed single sex exemptions, how likely do you think it is that single sex spaces and services will continue, despite the EQA2010 allowing for such services for the safety, dignity and wellbeing of women?

jellyfrizz · 24/01/2023 15:36

Why is there an act that changes sex on people's birth certificates? If gender identity and sex are not the same thing then they're not the same thing.
It's not even inclusive, what about non-binary identities? It should have nothing to do with sex.

Mollyollydolly · 24/01/2023 15:30

This article from Sonia I thought laid it out well to help clarity of thought www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jan/21/stoking-a-culture-war-no-nicola-sturgeon-this-is-about-balancing-conflicting-rights

nauticant · 24/01/2023 15:03

morningtoncrescent62, is your question about what will be the material impact of having the Scottish GRCs compared to the regime of only having UK GRCs?

sanluca · 24/01/2023 14:56

Turn the question around:

Why would any male person want to use spaces meant for the female sex?

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