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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

A woman has been found guilty of raping two women

669 replies

AngelicaSchuylerAndHerSisters · 24/01/2023 13:23

A woman has been found guilty of raping two women when she was a man. Happened in Scotland. She hasn’t been sentenced yet - but where will she serve her sentence? In the womens prison?!
This is going to mean some serious discussions and tough times for the Scottish government. But it was surely only a matter of time before something like this happened.

OP posts:
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13
Plbrookes · 25/01/2023 16:27

SinnerBoy · 25/01/2023 13:59

Plbrookes · Today 12:44

You butted in on the exchange so do you want to be involved or not?

Well, in that case, you butted in, too. Yes, I'm engaging, but please don't ascribe the words of someone else to me, please.

I didn't. Check the comment. I'll wait for the apology.

ScrollingLeaves · 25/01/2023 16:27

She must be turning.

ScrollingLeaves · 25/01/2023 16:26

duc748 · Today 16:19
Elizabeth Fry turns in her grave

Quite, I am sure she must be.

For anyone who has not seen this but would like to sign it, this anonymous Parliamentary petition is to update the Equality Act to make clear that the protected characteristic ‘sex’ means biological sex.
If 100,000 signatures are reached it may lead to a Parliamentary debate which is certainly needed.
⬇️

www.mumsnet.com/talk/petitions_noticeboard/4668426-petition-update-the-equality-act-to-make-clear-the-characteristic-sex-is-biological-sex?page=1

Kucinghitam · 25/01/2023 16:24

IIRC the Elizabeth Fry foundation in Canada have been actively campaigning for the inclusion of male ladies in women's prisons there.

duc748 · 25/01/2023 16:19

<Elizabeth Fry turns in her grave>

Emotionalsupportviper · 25/01/2023 16:17

If this is the attitude they take why have sex-segregated prisons at all?

Let's just go back to the good old days where all prisoners - men, women and children - were locked up together and the women and children were indiscriminately raped and brutalised. Would make things a lot easier from the administration point of view.

Bar-stewards.

MoirasSaggyBundles · 25/01/2023 16:17

@duc748 The Conservatives For Women YT channel has a back catelogue of clips of all the Conservative (and other party) MPs who have spoken up in Parliament for women's rights over the last year and beyond:

www.youtube.com/@cfw3425/videos

BruceAndNosh · 25/01/2023 16:12

ditalini · 25/01/2023 15:58

The fucking neck of Keith Brown to say that GRR won't make any difference to the issue of men in women's prisons because they already let them in without a GRC.

So absolutely no possible legal reason to have TW in the female estate (no moral reason either, but lets stick to legal), but they did it anyway for reasons.

"we're already sending men into women's prisons, so the lassies are well used to it"

duc748 · 25/01/2023 16:05

MoirasSaggyBundles · 25/01/2023 15:23

Yes, she's been absolutely brilliant for a long time on this, as well as her colleague, Kemi Badenoch MP. If you search the Feminism board, you will find a lot of threads and clips on her and KEmi.

@MoirasSaggyBundles

Ta. I know about KB of course, but hadn't heard of Cates. The footage of her being harassed in the HoC whilst speaking absolutely reasonably was disgraceful, and LRM (is it?) should at the very least have been dressed down by Spineless Starmer.

Waitwhat23 · 25/01/2023 16:00

ditalini · 25/01/2023 15:58

The fucking neck of Keith Brown to say that GRR won't make any difference to the issue of men in women's prisons because they already let them in without a GRC.

So absolutely no possible legal reason to have TW in the female estate (no moral reason either, but lets stick to legal), but they did it anyway for reasons.

Purely to gain approval from the Scottish Trans Alliance, it seems like.

ScrollingLeaves · 25/01/2023 15:59

How dare Keith Brown say that women in prison should put up with any male inmate let alone this one, and say that the case will be adequately assessed.How dare he. However propitious an assessment deems the outcome, this will never change the outrage of the presumption of men in vulnerable women’s spaces in the first place.

ditalini · 25/01/2023 15:58

The fucking neck of Keith Brown to say that GRR won't make any difference to the issue of men in women's prisons because they already let them in without a GRC.

So absolutely no possible legal reason to have TW in the female estate (no moral reason either, but lets stick to legal), but they did it anyway for reasons.

Sugarfree23 · 25/01/2023 15:49

I've signed both those petitions.
We all need to get behind the prison women.

I almost hope for a domino effect fight back on the prisons, also means a fight back on other spaces, hospital wards, toilets, changing and shower rooms.

Waitwhat23 · 25/01/2023 15:47

An Urgent Question was asked in the Scottish Parliament today regarding this case. See link for response from Keith Brown of the SNP -
twitter.com/ForWomenScot/status/1618269539325865984?s=20&t=UDg0WAD1ZzXIZiHd_VRZqA

I believe that Keith Brown is the Minister for Justice and Veterans and in regards to the Scottish Prison Service -

'The Chief Executive of the Scottish Prison Service, currently Teresa Medhurst, is responsible for its administration and reports to the Cabinet Secretary for Justice, who is responsible for the Scottish Prison Service within the Scottish Government.'

IcakethereforeIam · 25/01/2023 15:40

I've put a thread on the petition board to the Change.org petition for getting that man out of Limerick women's prison. This is a different man to the rapist currently in the Scottish prison.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/petitions_noticeboard/4728136-remove-violent-man-from-limerick-womens-prison

ScrollingLeaves · 25/01/2023 15:35

Cuppasoupmonster · Today 12:29

ScrollingLeaves · Today 12:21

“Cuppasoupmonster · Today 12:16”

“I’ll happily write all the necessary letters and petition somebody if I could think of who”

Have you signed this one which would help clarify the law which in itself could help protect women more?^

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/623243

Signed!

🍵😈👍🥳

MoirasSaggyBundles · 25/01/2023 15:23

duc748 · 25/01/2023 15:15

I'd never heard of Miriam Cates until the day before yesterday. Does she have a track record of speaking out on this issue, does anyone know?

Yes, she's been absolutely brilliant for a long time on this, as well as her colleague, Kemi Badenoch MP. If you search the Feminism board, you will find a lot of threads and clips on her and KEmi.

duc748 · 25/01/2023 15:15

I'd never heard of Miriam Cates until the day before yesterday. Does she have a track record of speaking out on this issue, does anyone know?

IcakethereforeIam · 25/01/2023 15:13

I watched the above from Holyrood, unless I misunderstood the Cabinet Secretary (?) guy strengthened the case for s35 being invoked. He said that possession or otherwise of a GRC was irrelevant regarding Scottish prisons unlike in England and Wales.

MoirasSaggyBundles · 25/01/2023 15:11

Miriam Cates on Times Radio earlier:

MoirasSaggyBundles · 25/01/2023 15:08

SirChenjins · 25/01/2023 14:29

According to a poster on another thread, Joanna Cherry was interviewed on Radio 4 today and said that basically the GRR does not affect the Equalities Act and the UK govt should keep its nose out of Scottish politics. If that's the case then it's very disappointing - I would have expected more from her.

I'm not quite getting that from what I've heard her say. She says she opposed the GRR on the basis of human rights and equality law, and that it hasn't been properly evaluated for its impact on the EqA 2010 and human rights of people who are not trans.

The question of s35 being invoked by Westminster is a constitutional issue, not about the Bill per se, and as a Scottish nationalist, she is not going to support a measure that blocks Scottish autonomy. JC thinks it can be ironed out in a way that does not compromise Scottish independence, by the Scottish government itself reviewing the GRR. I've seen others say that government to government discussion should be sufficient to sort this out.

The content of the GRR as drafted and the s35 power are two different issues; however, if practically speaking, invoking section 35 is the only way to stop this Bill passing until it can be amended sufficiently to not run roughshod over the EqA, then that's the way Westminster should go, Imo. A Scottish nationalist would never agree, though, or certainly would not do so publicly.

Skyellaskerry · 25/01/2023 15:06

Shelagh Fogarty talking about this on LBC now

seXX · 25/01/2023 14:57

Question asked at 2.55pm

www.scottishparliament.tv/meeting/meeting-of-the-parliament-january-25-2023

seXX · 25/01/2023 14:54

One of my MSPs has just forwarded me this to say that it will be discussed this afternoon in parliament as Russell Findlay has raised an urgent question:

"Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party press office
Wednesday 25 January 2023
FAO: all newsdesks
Embargo: for immediate release

Fears over the refusal of the SNP to include key safeguards in their controversial GRR Bill have been vindicated by the high-profile case of a transgender rapist this week, it has been claimed.

Scottish Conservative MSP Russell Findlay – whose joint amendment preventing those accused of serious sex crimes from seeking to change gender until their case is concluded, was voted down – has had an Urgent Question on the topic selected by the Presiding Officer for this afternoon.

The rapist, who first appeared in court as Adam Graham but now goes by the name Isla Bryson, was found guilty yesterday (Tuesday) of raping two women and is in Cornton Vale women’s prison awaiting sentencing.

Russell Findlay believes it is “inappropriate, unacceptable and wrong” for Bryson to be housed in a women’s prison and is demanding the immediate publication of the Scottish Prison Service’s Gender Identity and Gender Reassignment policy review, which was promised last summer.

Scottish Conservative shadow community safety minister Russell Findlay MSP said: “The horrific rape case brings into sharp focus one of the fundamental flaws of the GRR Bill.

“It would be traumatic and demeaning for any rape victim to hear their brutal attacker referred to as ‘she’ and ‘her’ in court proceedings. Only men can be rapists.

“I put forward an amendment to the GRR Bill which would have prevented those charged with serious sexual offences from changing gender until their case has been concluded, so that exactly this scenario could be avoided in future.

“Astonishingly, SNP, Green and Lib Dem MSPs voted it down, giving the very clear signal that, in their eyes, the rights of criminals take precedence over those of their victims.

“That was unforgivable. However, now that we have a pause in the bill, because of the issuing of a Section 35 order by the UK Government, I’d urge Nicola Sturgeon to admit she has got this badly wrong and include our amendment in any redrafted version of the bill.

“The other key aspect of this appalling case is that it’s entirely inappropriate, unacceptable and wrong for this vile rapist to be housed in a female prison, which is bound to contain women who have been victims of male violence, sexual violence and abuse.

“We need the updated policy review from the Scottish Prison Service on transgender criminals – and which prisons are appropriate for them – published now. That’s why I submitted the Urgent Question, which I’m pleased the Presiding Officer has selected.

“When the Scottish Conservatives asked about this early last year, we were promised the review would be published by summer 2022. So why are we still waiting for it?”

Notes

Russell Findlay’s Urgent Question selected by the Presiding Officer, reads: To ask the Scottish Government whether it will provide an update on the Scottish Prison Service’s Gender Identity and Gender Reassignment Policy Review.

The SPS have broken their promise to publish their updated transgender prisoner policy by summer 2022. The Scottish Prison Service said in response to a Scottish Conservative freedom of information request ‘the SPS Gender Identity and Gender Reassignment (2014) Policy review will be published alongside the updated policy in late Summer 2022’. (SPS FOI HQ22006, 3 May 2022, available on request).

The SNP Government confirmed that transgender prisoners are assessed for suitability on a case by case basis in women’s prisons. Shona Robison confirmed: ‘The SPS has for many years been managing transgender prisoners, some of whom are placed in the women’s estate and some in the men’s estate, according to risk’ (Official report, 21 December 2022, link)."

duc748 · 25/01/2023 14:40

Waitwhat23 · 25/01/2023 12:11

This is a great article for understanding how legislation and policies have been changed under the radar (one tactic being adding policies to more 'palatable' debates in order to put them through - self id in Ireland being an obvious example) -

www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-document-that-reveals-the-remarkable-tactics-of-trans-lobbyists/

Until I started to see this in action, I would have been a bit 'ooh, it's a bit too conspiracy theory' but it's not a conspiracy theory if it's actually happening.

I read the Speccie link. I think they are dead right in saying (I've often said so myself) that Joe and Joanna Public are largely unaware of what's going on here. And would certainly not support it if they knew.

Although I have to say that the Spectator complaining about dodgy lobbying groups, considered their long-held links with the like of the dubious 'think tanks' that brought us Brexit and other blessings, is a bit rich. But, like the Mail, doesn't mean they are wrong about everything.

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