Sunday Morning Live BBC TOMORROW 10:30; Scottish GRA Reform, no female lawyers on panel

When the situation is clear and not made opaque, the public is against males in women's spaces. Because of all the obvious reasons why. When polls are made confusing and words are twisted, people get confused and you get different results.

But for a poll to be useful, anyone carrying it out would want it to use clear language, right?

Where is the otherside where is there someone on the GC side

Gomersal, bloke, Hayton, bloke

Here we go.....

I keep raising this issue with women I know who aren't following the politics of it. They nearly all say that they think that people should be able to wear what they want, be called what they want, not be discriminated against regarding jobs/housing. But they think third spaces should be provided for toilets/changing/hospital wards.

That is pretty much the result of recent polling done by the More in Common research group.

There's a very clear and statistical distinction between the views around "live and let live" and even "if they think they're women, let them think that" (which I think is what many people might say is what they mean by TWAW), and the "logical" extension of the TWAW view into allowing men to compete in women's sports, and have unrestricted entry to women's single-sex spaces.

www.moreincommon.org.uk/our-work/research/britons-and-gender-identity/

I find this hilarious @MargaritaPie what does mean and women mean here?

By all your posts I'm sure you'd argue they could all be the same people?

This is the problem when you obliterate the meaning of words. You remove the accuracy and reliability of data.

As I said, I know a lot of women. Some of course are close to me and I know them well and you could assume they share a lot of my opinions and values. But I know hell of a lot more as colleagues, parents at school, clubs and activities, through professionals associations, shared interest forums etc and it is so rare to meet or discuss this issue with anyone who thinks men in women's sports or men in women's showers or prisons is ok. These people are not selected in this issue and yet they all say, "er no"

If you say to women, "do you want to have the right to have a biological female carry out your smear/mammogram or act as a chaperone if the hcp carrying out our intimate exam is a man?," you will be hard pushed to find one who says no.

If you say to women, "if you run a race or even parkrun, do you think your times and places should be compared to men who feel like women?" They will say no.

If you say to parents, "when your daughter goes on a school trip, do you care if a biological female staff member if present on the trip? Would you be happy for them to only be accompanied by biological male members of staff?" You will find that parents of daughters, who may start or experience female issues such as their first period while away, do not consider that a man who feels like a women is a woman.

I'm assuming that MPie means women, when saying women because we all tend to use language accurately unless we make huge efforts to lie.

I keep raising this issue with women I know who aren't following the politics of it. They nearly all say that they think that people should be able to wear what they want, be called what they want, not be discriminated against regarding jobs/housing. But they think third spaces should be provided for toilets/changing/hospital wards.

That's the reality of most women's thoughts. Kind and maintaining boundaries. Transphobic through and through, obviously 🙄.

Which will be roundly ignored by those engaging in sea lion tactics

Good thread about it by Maya Forstater

twitter.com/MForstater/status/1284074090228260864?s=20&t=bqc88pCy6A8a6x-E1yvn0Q

That poll is from 2020 and I think opinion has shifted a lot. Most women I know including Gen Z used to be "be kind" but nearly all have changed their mind

Funny sort of "recognition" really.

"Yes they're women when I give it five seconds' thought, but not when I think about how it has consequences".

Yes Marg, but the polled women still don't support penises in women's spaces, do they? Or self ID. Or males in women's sports. As I'm sure you know.

...

Never met a woman who’s a fan of transwomen obliterating women’s rights and single sex spaces, destroying women’s sports, and destroying safeguarding of children.

But if you’re only counting men in skirts, I expect you’re right.

Did somebody call?

Yes, please define your terms.

When you say "women" and "men" who do you mean? How do you collect this data? What do you ask people to define themselves by? Their biological sex? Or their gender identity?

What do you mean by trans rights?

Because if you mean "anyone who considers themselves trans should have all the same rights, privileges, opportunities and respect afforded to others of their sex class" then I can't see many people disagreeing.

But if you says, "any man who self identifies as a trans woman should be able to access single sex spaces reserved for women, including prisons, hospital wards, changing rooms, showers, swimming sessions and exercise classes, counselling groups, refuges and they should be considered women if performing the role of chaperone in a health care setting or for strip searching female detainees in prisons and asylum centres...and if girls go on school trips and need a female member of staff, a trans identified male should be counted as that person..." Then I think you'll find it's a NO THANK YOU.

And do you know what @MargaritaPie I reckon I know a lot more women than you. I work in large institutions in an overwhelmingly female profession, with mostly women as mothers. I have female children who compete in female sport and I'm on every bloody pta and committee with all other mums (amazing the things men manage not to try to colonise). All the teachers my kids have are women and I have sisters and a large web of female friends, book groups, neighbours and acquaintances. And I don't know a single one of them who thinks the above is ok. Not a single one thinks my daughters should be pushed out of sport. Not a single one wants to turn up for their smear and find the nurse acting as the female chaperone was born a bloke but feels like a women. None of them. No one sends their daughter on a residential or camp without a bona fide woman on the staff.

You can tell yourself whatever you like but you are wrong.

Maybe you should tell the TRAs about that, and they can direct their venom at men instead of women.

It doesn't surprise me to learn that anyone supports trans rights. I support the rights of trans people - those that already exist in law, such as the right not to be discriminated against, the right to live free of harassment etc - and I would also happily contribute towards any campaign to stop medical experiments on trans people and get them the third spaces they need.

However, it is pretty apparent that as soon as you clarify that the rights being demanded will actually empower any man to enter women's spaces unchallenged, and obliterate women's sports, a lot of women do a bit of a double take.

Interestingly, so many people are still not aware of exactly what the demands of the trans rights movement is. Almost as though its been bought in by stealth rather than transparent public consultation. Almost as though debate and information around the issue has been surpressed.

Yeah - it’s called female socialisation to #be kind.

Men, on the other hand, have no problem saying fuck off.

It’s about time women learned the power of fuck off.

So you'd be fine with a group of non LGBT+ women sitting discussing with the BBC what they think a TQ+ identity is, how they intend to control it and what rights they might permit, without a TQ+ person to balance it?

Again, seriously?

The bepenised type, obviously! No other women's opinions count apparently.

Are you talking about female women or male women? Given that you think “women” is a mixed-sex category, it’d be helpful to clarify.

Evidence @MargaritaPie ? As opposed to anecdotes or wishful thinking ...

You might be surprised to learn in the general population women actually tend to be more supportive of trans-rights than men are.