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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sunday Morning Live BBC TOMORROW 10:30; Scottish GRA Reform, no female lawyers on panel

107 replies

MrsMidClegs · 21/01/2023 15:55

Sunday Morning Live on BBC One tomorrow will include a debate about the legal implications of the Scottish GRA reform.

WRN was asked to send a speaker, we were ready to do this but then they said she was not needed.

We know that Robin Moira White is speaking.

The format of the programme is interactive, and viewer texts, phone messages etc are read out to contribute to the debate. Please tune in, send messages and ensure that the voices of women are heard, but this will be too late, the BBC is not conforming to its remit of impartiality if it refuses to interview someone of the protected class this Bill will demolish.

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MorvenOfMalvern · 23/01/2023 08:28

Tabitha1960 · 22/01/2023 19:11

Sean Fletcher and Holly Hamilton present the show that puts the heart and soul into Sundays, bringing faith and ethics to the discussions that matter most.

The UK government blocked Scotland's gender law reform, which would have simplified the process for gaining a gender recognition certificate. Should it be easier to change your legal sex?

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m001hhxg/sunday-morning-live-series-13-episode-15

I'm not sure there were any faith and ethics (or heart and soul) on display? Sean Fletcher was just wide eyed naivety as far as I saw!

MorvenOfMalvern · 23/01/2023 08:26

Polling from the end of last week shows v little support for this. If course, sone of those asked may have been older and therefore MP thinks they should just politely die off and have no say, but while they're here they do keep having opinions....

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/gender-reforms-rejected-by-voters-in-scotland-and-england-poll-finds-887k6jmpn

Tabitha1960 · 22/01/2023 19:11

Sean Fletcher and Holly Hamilton present the show that puts the heart and soul into Sundays, bringing faith and ethics to the discussions that matter most.

The UK government blocked Scotland's gender law reform, which would have simplified the process for gaining a gender recognition certificate. Should it be easier to change your legal sex?

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m001hhxg/sunday-morning-live-series-13-episode-15

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 22/01/2023 18:24

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Margarita
I have DC at School and Uni right now and they are biological realists possibly because they study STEM. Also they play rugby and they know full well that there is no way any of their team could safely play against women. DS1 is well over 6 foot and around average size for his team. DS2 has boys in his school team who are 6'4" They understand concussion risk and injury risk from tackling and they wouldn't be comfortable playing against females.

I think you'll find that teenagers increasingly see the trans issues as an older persons issue and a bit boring. (Remember to a teenager 30 is ancient).

MorvenOfMalvern · 22/01/2023 18:08

I've got teen daughters, they're v GC, as are all their sporty friends. They're not stupid. They know the cut off times they need to achieve in their sports to make selections and they know the boys' times are out of their reach.

They have zero desire to share rooms, tents, changing rooms or toilets with boys and men. My girls and their friends are really into their privacy and won't change on a beach or next to the pool for example, they want and need privacy as they get used to their changing bodies and the unpredictable vagaries of menstruation.

They've got friends at school who are all part of the LGBTQIA+++ Club and they're all girls who 'go out with' each other and wear furry cats ears and watch manga. Not one of them is actually in anything like a relationship with anyone, they just hang out together and get a lot of kudos and protection for being part of the group. It's a safety and group identity thing, the like of which has gone on in early adolescence since the dawn of time. These girls also know what a girl is, and clearly value close female company (and they may grow up to be lesbian, who knows/cares).

I have responsibility for students at work and they're also well aware of the impacts of being female in the workplace, the impacts of single sex provision on women of different cultural and religious backgrounds etc, the needs for female staff members for mixed groups of children.

When you are clear with your questions and your language, you will find that not many people are up for giving any men, however they identify, blanket acceptance into women's spaces and categories. Look at the comments on articles such as Ellie Gomersal in The Times today. No one thinks this doesn't have impacts that needs considering.

I'm only in my 40s, I'll be alive a while yet I hope. I'm not going to change my mind on this fundamental issue of reality. I cannot see that my bright and critical thinking daughters, to whom sport and privacy matter so much, are going to be persuaded. My mum is 75 so possibly fits in your category of people to be ignored, but she's fit, active, articulate and very involved in her local community activities and church. She's not stupid or to be dismissed easily. She's worked in safeguarding and social work all her life and absolutely knows what a woman is. Women who grew up in the 50s and 60s know a lot about male abuse of women unfortunately.

You are wrong wrong wrong. Women are not going to just let this go. We are not going to give in and agree. We are going to fight tooth and nail to prevent this harmful ideology going any further to remove our rights.

Boiledbeetlelovesbeautifullybindedbundles · 22/01/2023 17:24

So disappointed I went out and bought a new name and everything, took me all day. Get home go to catch up and RMW is a no show.

Well, that was a waste.

And with regards to a comment by a poster who i refuse to mention at the moment the young girls I know are very gender critical but absolutely petrified of saying it out loud where their friendship gross might ostracise them, so yeah in public they are all very much in favour. Safe at home when they are free to speak their mind, they are sick of this crap.

Tinysoxxx · 22/01/2023 16:31

Also disagree with you Margarita. I don’t think you have young adult children/children as you will have noticed the shift.

I disagree with your assessment of Uni students based on my experience of being around schools and universities recently.

In my experience as an ex-teacher, the gender stuff is more likely in white, middle class, more affluent areas where children are spending a lot of time on social media. Most children start getting active on social media at secondary school. By the end of year 7/ beginning of year 8 there’s a lot of, what I would call ‘avoidance genders’ - identifying as a gender that tries to avoid puberty effects and any sexuality as, particularly girls, are scared about what this entails. This is also great in popularity stakes as they get lots of likes for being pansexual/non-binary etc. This carries on throughout school so they can dismiss attention. By years 10/11 lot of pupils are ready for relationships and reject these labels. Except a ‘core group’ at sixth form. These groups can be very vocal on ‘their rights’ etc etc. What is happening is that the sixth formers are avoiding these groups as they see through them. Of course, ‘being kind’ but keeping out the way and not mixing. So by the time they go to university most students are very clued up and see these groups as a hornets nest - tread carefully around them and definitely don’t stir them up. Any agreeing is just to avoid disagreeing. But I have seen a change where students are getting fed up of the immaturity of these groups. And in the last year they are beginning to be more eye-rolling about it.

EasterIsland · 22/01/2023 15:56

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Abccde · 22/01/2023 15:56

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And then they will have a bad experience. They will experience the misogyny 1st hand or God forbid worse.

Or they will have children.

Or they will have to give a male a smear test on the NHS

Or their mum will have to share a hospital ward with a male.

Or their granny has a male carer for intimate care despite the request for same sex care.

fabricstash · 22/01/2023 15:56

Universities are not real life - So many students dare not speak out loud. Doc Stock has proved herself and was nominated one of the top worldwide current philosophers. Reaching a wider audience than ever. You are so wrong - women say no!

EasterIsland · 22/01/2023 15:54

Look at the backlash against ex-lecturer Ms Stock for example.

This is disingenuous. The protest against Professor Stock (or Doctor if you prefer, but have some manners and give her one of her correct titles. ) Those protests were staged by provocateurs from outside Sussex University (the so-called "anti-fascist protesters, whose tactics look suspiciously like Blackshirts from the 1930s, but hey, right side of history & all that) and the number of students involved was a tiny percentage of Sussex's total student population of almost 20,000 undergraduates.

ResisterRex · 22/01/2023 15:51

Disagree all you like, Marge. But the newer polls with the clearer language say what they say. Women said no, get over it.

picklemewalnuts · 22/01/2023 15:25

I overwhelmingly support LGBT rights, Margarita. The rights we all have.

I do not support people claiming to be a different sex from the reality, and I don't support sex categories being redefined as gender identity categories with no consideration of the outcome.

Awards categories by sex, as they always have been, instead of gender identity?
Sport by sex rather than GI?
Medical treatment, prisons, toileting...

all traditionally separated very effectively by sex.

No need for any law changes, no need for extra rights or conflict of rights, if we continue as it has always been.

Have whatever gender identity you like- there are about a hundred to choose from after all- and there's no need to change laws to accommodate it.

Win win.

MargaritaPie · 22/01/2023 15:16

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ScrollingLeaves · 22/01/2023 15:14

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ExiledElsie · 22/01/2023 15:07

@JoodyBlue you're welcome! In these short pieces I'm often frustrated that 'my' points never get made, but Ella Whelan was so good I rewound to check her name and found her on Twitter.

MrsMidClegs · 22/01/2023 14:50

I know of 2 men who wrote in to the show to ask about the impact of the reform on Muslim women. Aka, this will re-introduce the urinary leash on practising devout Muslim women in the workplace if they cannot be guaranteed a female only place to pay down their hair, ablute before prayer etc.
No response from them. It's as if the BBC are Islamophobic?

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Ohyoudodoyou · 22/01/2023 14:27

fabricstash · 22/01/2023 09:23

That poll is from 2020 and I think opinion has shifted a lot. Most women I know including Gen Z used to be "be kind" but nearly all have changed their mind

absolutely this. I know because I was one of the women who would previously have said this. I then went on to be very clear with many of my female friends who have ALL now fully agree with my concerns.

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · 22/01/2023 13:50

When I was canvassing people to complete the GRA consultation, a lot of people thought transwoman meant a woman who identified as a man. And my experience wasn't uncommon.

Yes, precisely. And a very large percentage will also automatically assume that a transwoman means somebody who has had his genitals removed and thus, although still genetically male, is much less of a threat to women - and, I suppose, has made a firm 'commitment' to their seriousness in their perceived cause.

BettyFilous · 22/01/2023 13:46

I watched this earlier. When Ellie made the argument that gender dysphoria has been removed from the list of mental health conditions by the WHO as an argument for demedicalising the GRC process my wars pricked up. If this is one of the new lines of argument for self-ID, it’s going to run into problems. If it’s not a medical disorder then why is the NHS picking up the bill for treatments (cosmetic and surgical procedures) which effectively support a lifestyle choice and why is this lifestyle choice getting special legal protections that others don’t? Why don’t women with PCOS get hair removal on the NHS, or women with back pain their breast reductions? Or cataract surgeries, where patients with one good eye are expected to make do? Why the special treatment when other, medically necessary surgeries are rationed?

Mollyollydolly · 22/01/2023 13:23

ExiledElsie · 22/01/2023 11:35

It's really odd to watch a magazine programme like that after watching YouTube videos where one subject is discussed in detail for an hour or more.

That's a very good point. The MSM channels haven't caught up. I never watch this programme it's without any depth. They really need more long form programmes where they discuss issues like this. Anyone remember 'Up All Night' used to love that. I did see someone on twitter say RMW was on 'Free Speech Nation' tonight.

Judashascomeintosomemoney · 22/01/2023 13:22

Rightsraptor · 22/01/2023 11:33

I'd never seen that show before, not being a daytime TV watcher. I won't bother with it again.

They took huge subjects - women's rights, the Nazi persecution of the Jews, death - and galloped through each of them.

Typical BBC really.

A Twitterer called it ‘Blue Peter level discussion’, sums it up.

WarningToTheCurious · 22/01/2023 13:17

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ClaudiusTheGod · 22/01/2023 13:12

I look at Gomersall and all I can do is wonder about the mental gymnastics he’s done to decide that he’s female.

WarningToTheCurious · 22/01/2023 13:07

This programme is now available on iPlayer , if anyone needs a catch up.