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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why are trans people the "most marginalised and vulnerable" in society?

210 replies

taracetamol · 18/01/2023 18:54

Trans people are often described as being the most marginalised and vulnerable in society.

I do not pretend that people who identify as trans aren't subjected to prejudice or ridicule and indeed, sadly, threats of violence. Yet how is it quantified that they are THE most vulnerable within the UK? What evidence supports this? I genuinely want to know because I find it difficult to find statistics that relate exclusively to the UK.

OP posts:
RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 19/01/2023 18:38

Delphinium20 · 19/01/2023 18:14

Just let them have the low-impact demands they put forward and go back to your good works for cis women who are half the populations.

Just give us what we demand and we'll let you go. Reminds me of so many scenarios...

Hostage situations
Mafia shakedowns
Muggings
If you sleep with me, you'll get that promotion
Parental kidnapping
Stranger kidnapping
Bank robbing
Carjacking
Toddler tantrums

Indeed.

And let’s not forget, as always, that this is a group of MALE people making demands - very specifically demands - of FEMALE people.

Female people, who are already marginalised and vulnerable in all sorts of ways ourselves. Some groups of women especially so, eg disabled women, women prisoners etc.

People with male privilege claiming to be more vulnerable in order to justify their determination to curtail women’s rights.

And, once again, let’s always remember that the fundamental demand this group of male people has is that female people be allowed nothing of our own.

Not spaces, not DV services, not hospital wards, not rape crisis centres, not refuges, not prisons, not sports, not changing rooms, not shortlists, not awards, not open to the public social events - nothing.

What do we, the more marginalised, vulnerable sex want? We want the right to say no to male people, our oppressors. We want them to just leave us alone in certain situations and settings. That’s all.

What does this group of male people demand? They demand that we be denied that right. They demand the right to impose themselves on us, against our will, in EVERY single type of situation and setting.

Who is actually vulnerable here?

FriendofJoanne · 19/01/2023 18:38

@EastLondonObserver it is men killing each-other sadly, and that is an issue for another board. But men also kill women (2-3 a week here in the UK), they also rape, sexually assault, and physically assault women. So to say ANY man can say they are a woman puts us all at risk. The potential impact is not low, and I'm sure you're well aware of this.

It would REALLY REALLY help the TRA case if they could acknowledge this and come up with a way to tell the difference between Transwomen and dangerous men who dress as women to access women's spaces.

Helleofabore · 19/01/2023 18:18

EastLondonObserver · 19/01/2023 18:01

Who has the highest chance of being murdered?

cis males.

obvs no one gives a fuck about that here, though.

And we are back to murder again and you showing your motivation for being here.

You inability to engage is noticeable, your posts are like a revolving shame spinner. Spin and pick your shaming post topic.

DarkDayforMN · 19/01/2023 18:16

Just let them have the low-impact demands they put forward

no thank you.

Delphinium20 · 19/01/2023 18:14

Just let them have the low-impact demands they put forward and go back to your good works for cis women who are half the populations.

Just give us what we demand and we'll let you go. Reminds me of so many scenarios...

Hostage situations
Mafia shakedowns
Muggings
If you sleep with me, you'll get that promotion
Parental kidnapping
Stranger kidnapping
Bank robbing
Carjacking
Toddler tantrums

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/01/2023 18:10

Men. We discussed that ages ago. There's no such thing as "cis".

Delphinium20 · 19/01/2023 18:10

EastLondonObserver · 19/01/2023 18:01

Who has the highest chance of being murdered?

cis males.

obvs no one gives a fuck about that here, though.

I just gave a fuck about it less than 50 minutes ago.

Delphinium20 · 19/01/2023 18:09

EastLondonObserver · 19/01/2023 18:01

Who has the highest chance of being murdered?

cis males.

obvs no one gives a fuck about that here, though.

If you were reading, you would see I listed rates of male murders AND I noted the lack of reporting on Native American men's suicides.

I agree that in a feminist forum, we really shouldn't have to center male problems, should we?

RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 19/01/2023 18:04

Datun · 19/01/2023 18:03

'Low impact'. 😁

More front than Harrods, that one!

Datun · 19/01/2023 18:03

HootyMcboob76 · 19/01/2023 18:01

"Just let them have the low-impact demands they put forward"....

BE KIND YOU WENCHES

'Low impact'. 😁

Datun · 19/01/2023 18:02

EastLondonObserver · 19/01/2023 18:01

Who has the highest chance of being murdered?

cis males.

obvs no one gives a fuck about that here, though.

Ah yes, I must've missed all the threads you started about male on male violence.

HootyMcboob76 · 19/01/2023 18:01

"Just let them have the low-impact demands they put forward"....

BE KIND YOU WENCHES

EastLondonObserver · 19/01/2023 18:01

Who has the highest chance of being murdered?

cis males.

obvs no one gives a fuck about that here, though.

Cherry60 · 19/01/2023 17:59

Tom Swarbrick currently talking a huge amount of sense about the GRA on LBC in response to Charles Faulkner talking rubbish.

EastLondonObserver · 19/01/2023 17:58

Delphinium20 · 19/01/2023 17:36

I don't have time to dig for this, but the suicide rate for any demographic in the US (again, sorry to be American centric but it's my area of expertise and I post to be helpful in noting trends) is highest among male Native Americans aged 12-24 (might be 14 not 12, again, I need to confirm) but they NEVER get the media coverage a similar sized population gets.

Also, rape and sexual assaults against Native women is some of the highest in our country (again, need to dig for exact numbers) but this issue gets very low coverage and never celebrity endorsements.

If there's one thing that pisses me off about the trans/queer/non-binary narrative is that it is a MASSIVE distraction from really big problems affecting marginalized women. Like we didn't already have too many things to address in feminism, but now TRAs are wasting our intellectual, emotional, and physical labor. Not to mention wasting our TIME.

I think it’s only a “massive distraction / waste of time” because you choose to put up such rabid opposition to the needs of a small group. Just let them have the low-impact demands they put forward and go back to your good works for cis women who are half the populations.

it’s you who have let yourself become distracted.

EastLondonObserver · 19/01/2023 17:54

midgetastic · 19/01/2023 17:48

I think the most vulnerable narrative is unhelpful

All vulnerable groups need help and we need to find ways to do that that everyone sees as reasonable

So for me a grc could be given to whoever
But the equality act should be strengthened so it's clear that for things related to sex it's sex at birth that matters

So the difference in likelihood to commit violence is sex based
Sport's performance is sex based

And I think anything that is treating people differently because of gender should be made illegal

So far though no one has managed to share a single example of anyone claiming TG are “the MOST vulnerable” in the UK

midgetastic · 19/01/2023 17:48

I think the most vulnerable narrative is unhelpful

All vulnerable groups need help and we need to find ways to do that that everyone sees as reasonable

So for me a grc could be given to whoever
But the equality act should be strengthened so it's clear that for things related to sex it's sex at birth that matters

So the difference in likelihood to commit violence is sex based
Sport's performance is sex based

And I think anything that is treating people differently because of gender should be made illegal

Delphinium20 · 19/01/2023 17:36

I don't have time to dig for this, but the suicide rate for any demographic in the US (again, sorry to be American centric but it's my area of expertise and I post to be helpful in noting trends) is highest among male Native Americans aged 12-24 (might be 14 not 12, again, I need to confirm) but they NEVER get the media coverage a similar sized population gets.

Also, rape and sexual assaults against Native women is some of the highest in our country (again, need to dig for exact numbers) but this issue gets very low coverage and never celebrity endorsements.

If there's one thing that pisses me off about the trans/queer/non-binary narrative is that it is a MASSIVE distraction from really big problems affecting marginalized women. Like we didn't already have too many things to address in feminism, but now TRAs are wasting our intellectual, emotional, and physical labor. Not to mention wasting our TIME.

Delphinium20 · 19/01/2023 17:27

For PP who mentioned the Native American male homicides. (And yes, it's shit re: violence in the US. It's partially why I still vote for Democrats despite them being idiots about gender identity.)

332 Native American men were murdered in the US in 2022. A rate of 13.5.

11,935 Black men were murdered in the US in 2022. That's a rate of 52.7!!!!

Native American men make up roughly 1.4% of the US population. Pew Research in 2021 found that about 1.6% of US adults are transgender or non-binary. So similar sized populations.

Compare 32 trans people murdered vs 332 Native Men for a similar sized population.

www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm

RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 19/01/2023 17:06

Who’s more vulnerable though? The convicted male sex offender who identifies as trans and wants to be housed in a women’s prison? Or the actual women in the women’s prison, the great majority of whom have not been convicted of a violent or sex offence but have been victims of male violence/sexual violence themselves?

Oh it’s so difficult and nuanced, isn’t it. Absolutely no difference in levels of vulnerability between those two groups at all. Rapists vs victims of rape: who can possibly call that one?

FriendofJoanne · 19/01/2023 16:59

@EastLondonObserver the other 2 stats you posted are also questionable. Re transpeople more likely to be a victim of crime, we all know the sort of crimes they are victims to on here. Perhaps if TRAs were not so quick to scream 'crime!, transphobia!' at every little thing we'd have more faith in the crime stats.

Re HIV - it's not clear from that article if it is mainly Transwomen (biological males) or Transmen (biological females) who are seeking treatment for HIV positive because on the pie-chart it states females, but in the notes it states Transwomen, who would be males. I'm assuming it is Transwomen, so males, because that correlates with the statistics for the general population (1/3 females, 2/3 males in 2019 - total 98 552, including 285 children under 15)

www.nat.org.uk/about-hiv/hiv-statistics

There is no hate towards transpeople on here, and I think we all recognise the extreme vulnerability of some transpeople, particularly transmen, but it's certainly not all. There are statistically more vulnerable women and children in the UK, so why focus on trans when it comes to policies?

Saltywalruss · 19/01/2023 16:17

Workerbeep · 18/01/2023 19:10

unherd.com/2022/01/the-truth-about-trans-murders/

I found some here. In the article it is reported that the same period 1800 women were murdered.

But how do we know they are trans if they identify as the opposite sex?

Helleofabore · 19/01/2023 16:02

Delphinium20 · 19/01/2023 15:45

In my report on murder rates in the US, I assumed mix sex in population percentages for trans and non/binary because I used the number calculated by Pew Research who defined it as all transgender and non-binary persons.

Despite that, those mixed sex numbers still had a lower murder rate than women or children.

I only have US data, but I think it's relevant as we know male pattern violence has similar trends around the world.

Rates are per 100,000

There were 24,576 recorded homicides in 2022. 1,011 of these murders were children under the age of 14. A rate of 1.7

4,618 women were murdered in the US in 2022. A rate of 2.8

19,958 men were murdered in the US in 2022. A rate of 12.3

Pew Research in 2021 found that about 1.6% of US adults are transgender or non-binary.

32 trans people murder is a rate of 1.28 so BELOW the rate of women being murdered and FAR below the rates of male populations.

www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm

that is good to know thanks Delphinium

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 19/01/2023 15:54

we know male pattern violence has similar trends around the world.

Similar patterns, but the absolute levels vary quite a lot.

The rates you gave are per 100,000, so we'd need to multiply by 10 to compare with the UK overall rate of 11.7 per million

So the US figures would be:

  • children under 14, 17 per million

  • women, 28 per million

  • men, 123 per million

  • trans people, 12.8 per million

(And from a separate piece I've been reading about US murder rates, the US Native American population is almost exactly the same size as the trans population, but the murder rate is 10 times higher - so that would be 128 per million.)

A sidetrack from the original question, but a set of numbers that make me very glad indeed to live in the UK rather than the US.

EastLondonObserver · 19/01/2023 15:49

Helleofabore · 19/01/2023 15:40

Yes. Only after it was pointed out that the murder rates were very low in recent years, you posted your three metrics.

You pivoted.

It is quite clear to any one reading.

Sure - because it dawned on me vulnerability isn't just about murder. That what thinking people do.