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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Complications from trans surgery!

586 replies

Ihatedonuts · 16/01/2023 20:20

I know it's a daily mail article but I can't help thinking. We only ever hear positive stories but the figures tell us this. I really hope the men and woman are getting the support they need from these complications. 🥺

Half of trans surgery patients suffer pain, sexual issues years later mol.im/a/11629421 via dailym.ai/android

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IcakethereforeIam · 17/01/2023 17:20

All the stuff I've read about conversion therapy and how it's bad and doesn't work, is how it applies to same sex orientation. The trans stuff is just hitched to that waggon and it is not the same at all.

No-one should be tortured, mentally or physically. But that's the law for everyone already.

Help with mental health issues, all mental health issues, should be available to all the people that need it. Therapists shouldn't have their hands chained by unevidenced dogma and ideology.

littlelid · 17/01/2023 17:19

AlisonDonut · 17/01/2023 16:38

I'm not sure if you are getting this yet.

People who have tried to study and report on the risks have been prevented from doing so. So how would anyone know the risks if people are prevented from reporting on them?

What am I not getting? I was saying I agree I expect to be told them. From this thread alone it seems that not everyone is being told all the risks and that the research in this area is limited.

JusteanBiscuits · 17/01/2023 17:18

Of course good mental health care isn't about affirmation.

Discussing future risks and comorbidities is not conversion therapy. Discussing risks of HIV transmission with a young gay man isn't deemed conversion therapy. It's part of a supportive therapeutic relationship.

It's needed to protect the number of young people who are detransitioning. It's needed to protect everyone. To ensure that someone understands and knows what they're doing, and that they're doing it for exactly the right reason. Not that they're doing it because they "feel they're different". Someone else has mentioned the number of young autistic girls seeking to transition. It's to protect those people.

TheKeatingFive · 17/01/2023 17:17

I find the whole idea of applying 'conversion' to this topic confusing and deeply unhelpful.

Taking the idea of a Trans identity in good faith, there would be many ways of expressing that. Medical intervention should never be a given (and in fairness, it isn't currently).

So how would you 'convert' someone?

Force them to live under strict conformance of the gender norms of the sex?

That's an unlikely outcome as that applies to almost no-one among a non Trans identifying population.

How else?

clutchingatpearls · 17/01/2023 17:10

@JusteanBiscuits , earlier you said you thought really good mental health support was needed. I completely agree. But how can there be proper mental health support when simply exploring, say, the comorbidities that most trans identified teens have alongside their gender confusion will be outlawed or deemed unethical?

Isn't the job of real mental health support to allow the client to fully express the complexity of their distress? The interconnectedness of the pain they feel?

Or do you just see proper mental health care as just being about affirmation?

cosyblanketsquares · 17/01/2023 17:10

The article I mentioned is called "How to deprogram a ROGD teen". Graham Linehan has published parts 1 and 2 on his website and will soon be publishing part 3.
IMO it is a very well written illustration of how vulnerable teens are being indoctrinated and how difficult it is for their parents to protect them.
As previously mentioned, this particular topic has been very well hidden up till now.
TBH, I am amazed that this thread has stayed here for so long and has not, as yet, been bundled off to the naughty corner of MN. I am very glad it is still here so that a wider audience can read it.

OneMorePlant · 17/01/2023 17:08

Humans are mammals with 2 sexes, not reptiles, not mushrooms, not clownfish.

Just because bats navigate with echo location doesn't mean we should entertain the notion of installing antenna dishes on our heads.

It's not complicated.

I feel compelled to link Francis Aaron's Clownfish:

IcakethereforeIam · 17/01/2023 17:08

@JusteanBiscuits it's not just you and I on this thread, it's important to clarify some things for other people reading. I also have no idea whether you actually believe what you're typing applies to people. The fact you raised it at all suggested you might. I'm happy to move on.

That said, and although it's completely irrelevant, it is fascinatingSmile

Kucinghitam · 17/01/2023 17:08

JusteanBiscuits · 17/01/2023 17:03

are you saying gender isn't a thing in reptiles?? oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/temperature-dependent.html#:~:text=In%20most%20species%2C%20gender%20is,dependent%20sex%20determination%2C%20or%20TSD.

But really really excellent deflection from ideas that could help!!! I'm pretty sure none of you actually want to help young people struggling with their gender identity. You just want it hidden and banned.

I am saying that gender isn't a thing in non-human life-forms, yes.

Can anybody on the thread have a guess why I'm saying it? Wink

Whatsnewpussyhat · 17/01/2023 17:08

Luckily the intensity of this interest in gender/trans faded off after a couple of years and there was a gradual slow shift towards a more healthy experimentation with gender expression while no longer denying my female sex

Normal growing up.

This is part of the issue with teens. They are going through massive physical and emotional changes without the knowledge and maturity to realise that's it's all a perfectly normal process to take us to adulthood.
The intensity of adolescent hormones, combined with more risk taking behaviours, rebellion from parents and peer pressure, can lead to unhealthy coping mechanisms and being easily led.

I don't buy that. Genital transition surgery is not something anybody rushes into unprepared , like a tattoo or botox. It's no secret this is very complex, timeconsuming , expensive surgery with a long recovery time and obvious potential downsides

In Canada and America, girls as young as 13 are having their perfectly healthy breasts removed. They absolutely do not have the mental maturity or capacity to understand the consequences.

Some have spoken out about how it was all so rushed.
Some think if they stop taking testosterone their breasts will grow back.

No probs say the surgeons, we can just chuck in some false ones. That way we get paid twice. Win win.

Want a baby in the future after we've sterilised you? No probs, just rent one of those gross, boring 'cis' women to pop one out for you....

Children cannot consent to being put on a pathway that will destroy their perfectly healthy bodies and turn them into lifelong medical patients on the basis of subjective feelings, especially when all evidence shows for the best majority those feelings change. Puberty blockers should be banned for 'treating' dysphoria as this almost always leads to surgery and cross sex hormones and are not reversible as the TRA's claim.

Teens also think they're bloody invincible and getting older is forever away.

Do you think the girls on testosterone, in female bodies not designed to cope with high doses which, again, are proven to do great damage, understand that by 30 they will have massively increased risk of stokes, heart attacks, cancer, crumbling bones, constant pain etc etc or are they just thinking about their next hit of 'euphoria'

These girls are being put through early menopause when they haven't even finished growing. The medical profession already know early menopause increases risks to women ffs.

They are told if they stop testosterone it will all go back to normal but it won't. The long term damage done, because adults who should know better allowed it to happen.

Perhaps it would be better to stop with all the sickly cute euphemisms like 'top' surgery' and 'bottom surgery' and start calling them what they actually are.

No child, needs an unnecessary radical double mastectomy on perfectly healthy breasts, and it certainly shouldn't be a 'treatment' for a mental health issue.

Also, how come grown men can now claim to be women without making any changes or having any dysphoria, keeping their ability to reproduce and healthy adult body, yet children are pushed to take drugs and have surgery if they say they are trans... very strange double standard.

RedToothBrush · 17/01/2023 17:06

You can not biologically change sex.

Representing these ops in any way as anything other than cosmetic procedures, which have a high rate of complications and do not change sex is grossly misleading.

Anyone stating they were born in the wrong body or that they are a different sex (as opposed to gender) to the one they actually are, should theoretically be an automatic fail in terms of ability to consent

JusteanBiscuits · 17/01/2023 17:06

Chersfrozenface · 17/01/2023 17:02

No? Why would highlighting risks not be framed by some as terrorising individuals in an attempt to change their gender identity? And thus contrary to the proposed legislation.

The law will be clear on what is, and isn't, conversion therapy. Highlighting risks is not part of what they want to ban. You talk as if you think conversion therapy shouldn't be banned?

TheKeatingFive · 17/01/2023 17:06

Like I said, it was just an aside.

Why bring it up though? It's definitely irrelevant. It sounds like it could also be bollocks.

The only reason for talking about this is to obfuscate and confuse the debate. Humans can't change sex. We know this. Reptiles are irrelevant to this fact.

Hadalifeonce · 17/01/2023 17:04

Years ago, I saw something about people with body dismorphic problems and demanding limbs be removed to help them. Not one person had such surgery, all were recommended to see mental health professionals. How is this any different?

clutchingatpearls · 17/01/2023 17:04

Chersfrozenface · 17/01/2023 16:52

Mind you, if legislation banning "conversion therapy" includes "gender identity" and is passed in the UK Parliament, won't warning about the downsides of "gender affirming" surgery become illegal?

Yes, there is a very real danger it will.

So how do these desperately vulnerable young people get actual exploratory therapy? Answer: they won't.

JusteanBiscuits · 17/01/2023 17:03

Kucinghitam · 17/01/2023 16:59

You brought the "example" of reptile "gender" (this is not a thing) with pseudoscientific gobbledegook.

are you saying gender isn't a thing in reptiles?? oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/temperature-dependent.html#:~:text=In%20most%20species%2C%20gender%20is,dependent%20sex%20determination%2C%20or%20TSD.

But really really excellent deflection from ideas that could help!!! I'm pretty sure none of you actually want to help young people struggling with their gender identity. You just want it hidden and banned.

Chersfrozenface · 17/01/2023 17:02

JusteanBiscuits · 17/01/2023 16:54

Conversion therapy is not about highlighting risks. At all.

No? Why would highlighting risks not be framed by some as terrorising individuals in an attempt to change their gender identity? And thus contrary to the proposed legislation.

JusteanBiscuits · 17/01/2023 17:02

IcakethereforeIam · 17/01/2023 16:59

No species of mammal can change sex, it's determined at conception regardless of the temperature of incubation. If the temperature is wrong the foetus may be miscarried but it will not change sex.

You'd be surprised what some tras consider conversion therapy.

Like I said, it was just an aside. But yay, lets discuss this in detail rather than anything that could actually help people.

IcakethereforeIam · 17/01/2023 16:59

No species of mammal can change sex, it's determined at conception regardless of the temperature of incubation. If the temperature is wrong the foetus may be miscarried but it will not change sex.

You'd be surprised what some tras consider conversion therapy.

Kucinghitam · 17/01/2023 16:59

JusteanBiscuits · 17/01/2023 16:57

Why not discuss the need to much improved access to psychological support?

You brought the "example" of reptile "gender" (this is not a thing) with pseudoscientific gobbledegook.

RedToothBrush · 17/01/2023 16:57

The following is the first 21 points on how consent must be established to be valid from the Department for Health dated 2004. I believe new guidelines have come after this, but it's an interesting read on principles because it raises some questions. I will let others comment. Some are pretty glaring in terms of 'sex change' operations especially involving vulnerable children and adults (notably with autism)

Valid consent

  1. For consent to be valid, it must be given voluntarily by an appropriately informed person who has the capacity to consent to the intervention in question (this will be the patient or someone with parental responsibility for a patient under the age of 18, someone authorised to do so under a Lasting Power of Attorney (LPA) or someone who has the authority to make treatment decisions as a court appointed deputy). Acquiescence where the person does not know what the intervention entails is not ‘consent’.

Does the person have capacity?
2. The Mental Capacity Act 2005 defines a person who lacks capacity as a person who
is unable to make a decision for themselves because of an impairment or disturbance
in the functioning of their mind or brain. It does not matter if the impairment or
disturbance is permanent or temporary. A person lacks capacity if:

• they have an impairment or disturbance (for example a disability, condition or
trauma or the effect of drugs or alcohol) that affects the way their mind or brain works, and

• that impairment or disturbance means that they are unable to make a specific
decision at the time it needs to be made.

  1. An assessment of a person’s capacity must be based on their ability to make a specific decision at the time it needs to be made, and not their ability to make decisions in general. A person is unable to make a decision if they cannot do one or more of the following things:

• understand the information given to them that is relevant to the decision
• retain that information long enough to be able to make the decision
• use or weigh up the information as part of the decision-making process
• communicate their decision – this could be by talking or using sign language and
includes simple muscle movements such as blinking an eye or squeezing a hand.

  1. People may have capacity to consent to some interventions but not to others, or may have capacity at some times but not others. Under the Mental Capacity Act, a person must be assumed to have capacity unless it is established that they lack capacity. If there is any doubt, then the healthcare professional should assess the capacity of the patient to take the decision in question. This assessment and the conclusions drawn from it should be recorded in the patient’s notes. Guidance on assessing capacity is given in chapter 4 of the Mental Capacity Act (2005) Code of Practice.

  2. A person’s capacity to consent may be temporarily affected by factors such as confusion, panic, shock, fatigue, pain or medication. However, the existence of such
    factors should not lead to an automatic assumption that the person does not have the capacity to consent.

  3. Capacity should not be confused with a healthcare professional’s assessment of the reasonableness of the person’s decision. Under the Mental Capacity Act and the common law, a person is not to be treated as unable to make a decision merely because they make an unwise decision. A person is entitled to make a decision
    which may be perceived by others to be unwise or irrational, as long as they have the capacity to do so.

  4. However, if the decision that appears irrational is based on a misperception of reality,
    as opposed to a different value system to that of the health practitioner – for example a patient who, despite the obvious evidence, denies that his foot is gangrenous, or a patient with anorexia nervosa who is unable to comprehend their failing physical condition – then the patient may not be able to comprehend, weigh or make use of the relevant information and hence may lack the capacity to make the decision in question.

  5. The Mental Capacity Act also requires that all practical and appropriate steps are
    taken to enable a person to make the decision themselves. These steps include the

following:
• Providing relevant information. For example, if there is a choice, has information
been given on the alternatives?
• Communicating in an appropriate way. For example, could the information be
explained or presented in a way that is easier for the person to understand?
• Making the person feel at ease. For example, are there particular times of the day
when a person’s understanding is better?
• Supporting the person. For example, can anyone else help or support the person

to understand information and to make a choice?

  1. Guidance on how people should be helped to make their own decisions is given in chapter 3 of the Mental Capacity Act (2005) Code of Practice.

Is the consent given voluntarily?
10. To be valid, consent must be given voluntarily and freely, without pressure or
undue influence being exerted on the person either to accept or refuse treatment.

Such pressure can come from partners or family members, as well as health or care
practitioners. Practitioners should be alert to this possibility and where appropriate should arrange to see the person on their own in order to establish that the decision is truly their own.

  1. The test of capacity is set out in the Mental Capacity Act (see paragraph 2 above).
    Once it has been determined that a person has the capacity to make a particular
    decision at a particular time, a further requirement (under the common law) for that
    consent to be valid is that it must be given voluntarily and freely, without pressure
    or undue influence being exerted upon them.

  2. When people are seen and treated in environments where involuntary detention may

be an issue, such as prisons and mental hospitals, there is a potential for treatment
offers to be perceived coercively, whether or not this is the case. Coercion invalidates
consent, and care must be taken to ensure that the person makes decisions freely.

Coercion should be distinguished from providing the person with appropriate
reassurance concerning their treatment, or pointing out the potential benefits of treatment for the person’s health. However, threats such as withdrawal of any privileges, loss of remission of sentence for refusing consent or using such matters to
induce consent may well invalidate the consent given, and are not acceptable.

Has the person received sufficient information?
13. To give valid consent, the person needs to understand the nature and purpose of
the procedure. Any misrepresentation of these elements will invalidate consent.

Where relevant, information about anaesthesia should be given alongside information
about the procedure itself.

  1. It is particularly important that a person is aware of the situation when students or trainees carry out procedures to further their own education. Where the procedure will further the person’s care – for example taking a blood sample for testing – then, assuming the student is appropriately trained in the procedure, the fact that it is carried out by a student does not alter the nature and purpose of the procedure.

It is therefore not a legal requirement to tell the person that the clinician is a student,
although it would always be good practice to do so. In contrast, where a student proposes to conduct a physical examination that is not part of the person’s care then it is essential to explain that the purpose of the examination is to further the student’s training, and to seek consent for that to take place.

  1. Although informing people of the nature and purpose of procedures enables valid consent to be given as far as any claim of battery is concerned, this is not sufficient to fulfil the legal duty of care to the person.

Failure to provide other relevant
information may render the practitioner liable to an action for negligence if a
person subsequently suffers harm as a result of the treatment received.

  1. The requirements of the legal duty to inform patients continues to develop in
    case law. In 1985, the House of Lords decided in the Sidaway case that the legal standard to be used when deciding whether adequate information had been given to a patient should be the same as that used when judging whether a doctor had been
    negligent in their treatment or care of a patient: a doctor would not be considered negligent if their practice conformed to that of a responsible body of medical opinion held by practitioners skilled in the field in question. This is known as the
    'Bolam test’. Whether the duty of care had been satisfied was therefore primarily a matter of medical opinion. However, Sidaway also stated that it was open to the courts to decide that information about a particular risk was so obviously necessary that it would be negligent not to provide it, even if a ‘responsible body’ of medical opinion would not have done so.

  2. Since Sidaway, judgments in a number of negligence cases (relating both to the
    provision of information and to the standard of treatment given) have shown that
    courts are willing to be critical of a ‘responsible body’ of medical opinion. It is now clear that the courts will be the final arbiter of what constitutes responsible practice, although the standards set by the healthcare professions for their members will still be influential. In Chester v Afshar, a majority of the House of Lords held that a neurosurgeon who failed to warn a patient of the small risk of injury inherent in surgery, even if properly performed, was liable to the patient when that risk materialised, even though the risk was not increased by the failure to warn and thepatient had not shown that she would never have had an operation carrying the same
    risk.The Lords departed from the traditional ‘but for’ test of causation on the basis that, exceptionally, policy and justice required a modification to causation principles.

The fundamental principle underlying the decision was the right of a patient to make
an informed choice as to whether – and if so, when and by whom – to be operated on.

  1. In considering what information to provide, the health practitioner should try
    to ensure that the person is able to make an informed judgement on whether to give or withhold consent. Case law on this issue is evolving. It is therefore advisable to inform the person of any ‘material’ or ‘significant’ risks or unavoidable risks, even if small, in the proposed treatment; any alternatives to it; and the risks incurred by doing nothing. A Court of Appeal judgment stated that it will normally be the responsibility of the doctor to inform a patient of ‘a significant risk which would affect the judgment of a reasonable patient’. Following Chester v Afshar, it is advisable that healthcare professionals give information about all significant possible
    adverse outcomes and make a record of the information given.

  2. The GMC provides guidance on the type of information that patients may need to
    know before making a decision, and recommends that doctors should do their best to find out about patients’ individual needs and priorities when providing information about treatment options. It advises that discussions should focus on the patient’s ‘individual situation and risk to them’ and sets out the importance of providing the
    information about the procedure and associated risks in a balanced way and checking
    that patients have understood the information given. BMA guidance advises that if in doubt about the amount of information to give a patient, doctors ‘should contact their hospital lawyers or their medical defence organisation’.

  3. In the very rare event that the healthcare professional believes that to follow the
    guidance in paragraphs 18 and 19 in full will cause the patient serious harm, the
    GMC guidance states that this view, and the reasons for it, should be recorded in the patient’s notes. When such concerns arise it is advisable to discuss the issue within the team caring for the patient. In individual cases the courts may accept such a justification but would examine it with great care. The mere fact that the patient might become upset by hearing the information, or might refuse treatment, is not sufficient to act as a justification.

  4. Some people may wish to know very little about the treatment that is being proposed.
    If information is offered and declined, it is good practice to record this fact in the
    notes. However, it is possible that individuals’ wishes may change over time, and it is important to provide opportunities for them to express this. GMC and BMA guidance encourages doctors to explain to patients the importance of knowing the options open to them while respecting a person’s wish not to know, and states that basic information should always be provided about what the treatment aims to achieve and what it will involve.

JusteanBiscuits · 17/01/2023 16:57

Kucinghitam · 17/01/2023 16:52

One example in animal kingdom: For a number of species of reptile their gender is determined by temperature and length of incubation. This leads to some hatching chromosomally male, but with female sexual characteristics, and visa versa. Just one example.

Dear god. This is bollocks.

Why not discuss the need to much improved access to psychological support?

cosyblanketsquares · 17/01/2023 16:56

IcakethereforeIam · 17/01/2023 16:45

Glinner is Graham Linehan. Substack is the name of the type of website he posts on. He also hosts other people's work, there's a recent article from a parent who 'deprogrammed' their child, by recognising trans ideology as akin to being a teensy bit c*ltish (MN is a little bit ticklish about that word).

*u

Thank you. My internet just dropped out and I had to grapple with restarting lap top and connecting up again.

clutchingatpearls · 17/01/2023 16:55

MyLittleSausageDog · 17/01/2023 16:27

I can’t say I care. Anyone that isn’t happy in their body is never going to be happy in one of the opposite sex anyway 🤷‍♀️

Is it just because the kids involved are mostly gay or autistic?
Utterly crass.

JusteanBiscuits · 17/01/2023 16:55

TheKeatingFive · 17/01/2023 16:53

For a number of species of reptile their gender is determined by temperature and length of incubation. This leads to some hatching chromosomally male, but with female sexual characteristics, and visa versa. Just one example

Humans are mammals however. What relevance is this?

It was ONE example.

But my main point was that we need far more counsellors who are trained in this area to provide adequate, long term support.

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