Complications from trans surgery!

Normal was the wrong word. By normal I meant, basically, pain free.

No. Not at all. What about those that have had serious burns, for example. Do you think plastic surgery to correct painful scarring is "selling them a solution"?

There are lots of issues with plastic surgery and perhaps that should be a whole other thread.

However, I don't think its comparable to 'lets cut off your functioning sex organs and replace them with poor facsimiles of different sex organs that don't work properly and your body is in no way set up to support.'

IMO any sort of plastic surgery seems to be based on “convince people they have a problem and should hate themselves, sell them a solution”.

Well, in Iran a gay man will be given the choice of transitioning, a long prison sentence or death. Iran is considered by tras to be very accepting of transgender people.

Also, and I don't know if this was the pp point, pressure can be societal or familial. What choice does a little boy, whose earliest memory is being told he is a girl and he always said he was a girl, really have? I can think of three boys this has happened/is happening to who are in the public eye. They were gaslight by their parents from very young. Because they liked 'girls' toys. Two were straight onto puberty blockers, then wrong sex hormones, then penile inversion. One's mother was filmed laughing that the puberty blockers hadn't left the surgeons much to work with. Laughing that these, arguably, unnecessary drugs had stunted her son's penis.

Although puberty blockers are touted as being 'fully reversible' and 'just a pause' to give the child time to think. In fact, at the Tavistock, close to 100% of children given these drugs went on to have surgery. The long term effects of the drugs are becoming better know. They damage bone density giving young people the bones of a pensioner. Kids have wound up in wheelchairs. They may have long term effects on cognition as they retards brain maturation that normally occurs as part of puberty.

The bloke who identified as an alien clearly found some doctors willing to remove the tip of his nose, his ears, his top lip and 2 fingers. See also the man who identifies as a parrot.

I still think any plastic surgery is also a slippery slope - no-one would be getting lip filler if women weren’t constantly conditioned to think that thin lips are mean and ugly, and “plump” lips are aspirational. You see loads of women saying they got lip filler because you can’t see their top lip when they smile - that’s normal! Why is it suddenly ugly? Imagine if plump love handles were suddenly “in” and people got filler there because they now hated their thin love handles.

At least that’s dissolvable, this is for life.

Nice rty, but no. That is NOT someone tryign to force someone to have surgery, at all. That is just the somewhat reasonable attitude of "no penises in the womens spaces".
Men without penises are still men, but they're a little less threatening than men with penises. For some women, men without penises are ok in womens spaces. Not so much for the rest of us.

Any actual examples of where people are being forced into surgery?

I don't know anyone who has had it (I am on a facebook group for people in the same situation as me) who is left feeling 'normal'. I was made aware that this would be the reality after it.

I think a big part of the issue, though, is how could somebody having 'gender reassignment' surgery possibly have any idea of what should feel 'normal' for the opposite sex - much less actually experience normal function that was (and is) never going to be a factor in their own biologically sexed body?

It's not like, say, suffering kidney failure in later life, having a transplant and then being able to compare living with your new transplanted kidney with your previous experience of living with two originally healthy kidneys.

What i don't understand is how they find so many surgeons willing to do these surgeries. What happened to the hippocratic oath...First Do No Harm? Mutiliating healthy bodies seems to be something you should be arrested for, not applauded for.

That is a WHOLE other conversation! The whole reason I had vaginoplasty was down to being, frankly, mutilated by a doctor.

(and the hippocratic oath taken by doctors doesn't include "first do no harm". It does include I shall never intentionally cause harm to my patients, and will have the utmost respect for human life. though)

It's all fucking madness. If I identified as a one armed woman, no doctor in the land would surgically remove one of my arms.
If I identified as a three armed woman, again, no surgeon in the land would affix a third arm onto my body.

One example was yesterday someone said they were happy for trans women to use womens spaces but only if they'd had the surgery to create a vagina. If a transwoman doesn't want the full surgery, that is their choice. And a choice I support as vaginoplasty is incredibly painful and I can 100% understand why someone would want to avoid that level of pain.

What i don't understand is how they find so many surgeons willing to do these surgeries. What happened to the hippocratic oath...First Do No Harm? Mutiliating healthy bodies seems to be something you should be arrested for, not applauded for.

I think that those who even bother to try to justify it will argue that the danger to the patient's MH without the surgery is severe, and so that trumps everything else; but of course, if their MH is bad before they get their bodies mutilated, how anybody in their right mind (much less somebody with the skill and acuity to become a surgeon) can possibly think that performing the surgery will help to improve their MH defies any and all logic.

Why are you strongly against something nobody has ever wanted? Pretty bizarre standpoint.

That's horrific. However, this is unfortunately what happens when we conduct surgery that we aren't biologically built to handle.

Having had vaginoplasty. Yes, it's incredibly painful (one reason I am very strongly against people being forced into having full trans surgery). Yes, it creates life long problems. I don't know anyone who has had it (I am on a facebook group for people in the same situation as me) who is left feeling 'normal'. I was made aware that this would be the reality after it.

“And this is because the TRA narrative is mostly pushed by men, but backed up by very angry and strange women who seem to have accepted that women are just a series of holes.”

Not necessarily angry and strange women - many will not read any of this without a bias because women tend to be conditioned to put men first, to be kind.
I lost a very dear friend to this, she couldn’t bring herself to read anything that wasn’t all unicorns and sparkles about GRS or transing children, because it was disloyal to her TQ+ friends. She is the sort who tailors her whole life to be the kindest person ever. To be faced with someone like me, who questions it all and points out that autistic girls should be protected, was too much for her.

There’s also women who choose to remain ignorant. I’m quite surprised that some regular AIBU posters haven’t complained on this thread, or asked for it to be moved to the feminist boards, maybe the tide is turning? There are loads of women who think this doesn’t affect them so ignore it all.

The only thing shocking about the figures is that they are not higher. In fact they probably are, many people are so bought into the narrative that they won't admit to difficulties.

What i don't understand is how they find so many surgeons willing to do these surgeries. What happened to the hippocratic oath...First Do No Harm? Mutiliating healthy bodies seems to be something you should be arrested for, not applauded for.

Corporations like to virtue-signal, as do people. A great deal of the support for gender ideology is plainly virtue-signalling. It's not based in facts or coming from an ethical stance.

How often do we look back in horror at stupid superficial, easily reversible things like clothes we wore and hairstyles we had (not always that many) years ago and feel so glad that we've moved on now?

Well exactly. Like many people, I was briefly a goth as a teen. I heard my mum refer to it as a phase to my auntie and I was livid. But she was right. In fact, it was a very short phase. 😳

In this case, you aren't even allowed to suggest it's a phase and if it turns out to be that, then some poor individuals are living with irreversible effects for the rest of their lives. It's an absolute tragedy.

Most teenagers are uncomfortable with their changing bodies. I know I was. It's scary to think how easily this can turn into taking action that they later regret, especially while cheered on by peers and 'well meaning' authority figures.

I am struggling to understand your point. Sorry. I genuinely thought the crappy post had been deleted. I have just reported it. The vast majority of this thread is expressing profound care and concern about the care offered to trans people.

FGS I'm on the same side as you in this debate! My bias is the same as yours! You can search my post history if you like and you'll find me just last night saying I'm pleased about the challenge to Scottish gender reforms.

That doesn't mean I can't get annoyed at outright lies.

What I find bizarre is that TRAs, who purportedly care about the health and happiness of young trans people, try to shut down conversation about this.

Why would that be?

To make sure I'm covering my back, perhaps there are TRAs raising concerns. I have however never come across any.