Politics Live 10 Jan - Scottish Gender Reform Bill - will it be blocked by Westminster?

KO - it's a progressive and sensible measure to bring in this legislation for a marginalised group.

Fuck women and girls, then, Kirsten.

KO asked whether she is prepared to accept the risk. - I think it is important to quantify what these risks are, transpeople are in themselves as a group not a risk. The risk is predatory men.

Q- long and intrusive process for trans people - is it not right to look at making it easier?

Zoe Stimpel - given that now we live in times when there is a range of extremely highly trained experts focussing on gender dysphoria; given that people claim to suffer from it from babyhood; wouldn't you be thrilled to have medical diagnosis that confirms your dysphoria/identity? Is it so terrible to get medical diagnosis when the risks to women are so high?

[RMW eye-rolling, head tossing and fiddling with hair throughout SS and ZS speaking]

SS - that isn't worth the paper it's written on. IT depends on people coming forward and declaring they are a sex offender. Also, there are a lot of men who commit sex offences who are not convicted because a tiny proportion of sex offences like voyeurism and exposure actually see a day in court.

RMW - Every day I gave evidence there was evidence from 3 academics who had studied this elsewhere. You don't make law on anecdotes or single incidents. |If a single red headed person is a criminal, we don't criminalise all red headed people. The Scot gov as part of the process announced there would be changes to the statutory instruments to deal with sex offenders in Scotland, sex offenders, not trans people, that means there would be opportunities to block delay or interfere them gaining a GRC.

Sonia S - the Scottish Parliament consultation has been widely criticised as not being fair and balanced. MSPs in favour said no evidence. There are individual case studies of this happening which they dismiss as anecdote. The issue is that in a lot of countries where self ID exists, if someone legally changes their sex, their crimes are recorded as female crimes even if that person is biologically male. These things are not being tracked. It is wrong to say there is zero evidence. The absence of robust academic evidence does not mean there is no evidence that this brings risk.

RMW asked to comment on whether it will be abused. Says we should make law based on evidence and good journalists and politicians should be reassuring people and not promoting stories that cause concern. We already have 230 million people who live under a system where gender can be self declared. The committee in the Scottish Parliament worked very carefully through a consultation process that examined the evidence, not people's fears, not people's concerns, but the evidence of what actually happens. The report says that there was no concrete example brought forward to the committee.

SS - Predatory men - it's common sense that if you are a male sex offender and you get off on voyeurism or exposure, the fact that you can get a certificate on the basis of self ID with no medical diagnosis; declare yourself legally female for the purposes of the law; and that gets you access to certain female only spaces - of course men will abuse that. Eg, in California, in a Californian spa, a registered sex offender exposed himself in a female only changing room to a teenage. When a woman complained, she was called transphobic.

Sonia Sodha - several expert discrimination lawyers and a Scottish court have confirmed that, whether or not you have a GRC changes the threshold at which is becomes lawful and permissible to exclude somebody biologically not female from a female only space.

UN special rapporteur for violence against women and girls, Rima (?) Al Salem said it will potentially open the door for violent to identify as women to abuse the process of acquiring a gender certificate and rights associated with it.

Kirsten Oswald - violent men don't need a GRC. A GRC won't change people's access to single sex spaces, it won't change the difficulties women have over male predators. This is a different issue.

Sonia Sodha -

Zoe Stimpel - commenting on the UN High Commissioner saying no evidence of predatory male exploitation of self ID - doesn't agree and not reassured - plenty of incidence. That's not haw law and safety works. If you have a system that can easily be abused, that's a problem for everyone. Having g a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria is needed when you think of the concerns of women and girls in their spaces. RMW comparing it with being gay is misleading, because gay doesn't have anything to do with the spaces we are allowed into.

Kirsten Oswald - it's the will of the Scottish Parliament. There's no conflict with the rest of UK. Making it easier for the most marginalised (ffs).

Siobhan Baillie saying she would not remove the doctor certificate requirement Thinks it is fair to be looking at the impact on women's safety, but not sure about blocking.