Helen Joyce on Triggernometry

I dislike GC too for those reasons beastly. It's made it worse imo to have a name for people who understand biology as it's then used as a "collective hate group," instead of people who aren't fooled by gender ideology for a variety of reasons!

I wonder whether a next step might be 'men who want us to believe they're women'?

Gender realist is certainly an improvement. Maybe just 'realist'? I'm a realist, I don't believe that people can change sex or that men who think they're women should be allowed in women's changing rooms. That works, doesn't it?

I think the answer is to simplify. Move away from the definitions purloined from Queer theory and go back to plain English.

Yes, she's constantly evolving the language and I'd encourage everyone to follow her. 'Transwomen' has confused a lot of ordinary people who aren't sure whether we're talking about males or females. 'Men who think they're women' is much clearer. And instead of 'cis' women, 'real women'. And suddenly all becomes clear. We now need to find a better description for ourselves than Gender Critical, because that's very confusing. 90% of the population hold GC beliefs, but only 20% understands what GC means.

How do I know this? I went leafletting in various local towns 14 times last year and I spoke to hundreds of ordinary people and heard their confusion for myself.

Helen Joyce, if you're reading, please come up with a better term for GC. Thank you.

I can only imagine that the BBC are too scared to have her on as she speaks too much sense and packs so much content in - she is about the only person I don't listen to at 1.75 speed!

unherd.com/2023/01/how-we-created-a-self-hating-generation/

I wonder if anyone else might appreciate this thought-provoking article by Lionel Shriver about the consequences of us as a society focused on Identity rather than the lifetime work of building character - which mirrors Helen Joyce's concerns about (how we are co-creating?) mental health issues in teenagers.

"Transgenderism may have grown so alluring to contemporary minors not only because it promises a new “identity”, but because it promises a process. Transforming from caterpillar to butterfly entails a complex sequence of social interventions and medical procedures that must be terribly engrossing. Transitioning is a project. Everyone needs a project. Embracing the trans label gifts the self with direction, with a task to accomplish. Ironically, the contagion expresses an inchoate yearning for the cast-off paradigm whereby character is built."

"By withholding the assurance, “Don’t worry about not knowing who you are; you’re just not grown up yet, and neither are we, because growing up isn’t over at 18 or 21 but is something you do your whole life through”, we are cultivating self-hatred, disillusionment, bewilderment, frustration, and fury. Young women often turn their despair inward — hence the high rates of depression, anxiety, eating disorders, and cutting. Young men are more apt to project the barrenness of their interior lives onto the rest of the world and take their disappointment out on everyone else."

I like how when they question something she says and say, "so you think that..." And she corrects with, "no, the EVIDENCE shows" or "I can't find any evidence to support.."

She makes it clear that she's looked into, read up, considered and concluded based on good quality evidence. It's not about her feelings or opinion.

I too thought Helen Joyce’s comment
on children’s mental health at the very end was almost more important than the rest, if that is possible.

In light of that, if anyone reading here has not yet signed it, this is a petition against teaching ‘gender identity’ in children’s PSHE/RSE lessons in schools (attendance compulsory).

Even when they leave out those words I have seen enough of a very popular outsourced provider in which the materials and information are definitely, if insidiously, promoting the ideology.

Petition:
petition.parliament.uk/petitions/618970

Many of these initiatives in primary schools are often taught second or third hand. Staff loose sight of the true aims and key points. When you're just going through the motions to tick off a box it's going to be ineffective. There's also sometimes an over load of training initiatives. Something new pops up the next sept brought in by some keen new member of slt and other things go by the wayside.

Many strategies across teaching SEND I've been initially told to 'just do' were completely different when I then later attended first hand training.

(sorry off topic, it's v frustrating!)

I do agree it can be useful Arabella; certainly it is evidenced in adults but in my own experience it's still very different for different adults. What works for one doesn't work for another.

And that point is right to make; any male prisoner who identifies as trans more due to a lifetime of homophobia/ mental health difficulties/ asd etc is likely to be more vulnerable to attacks by other inmates.

The answer IS to make sure appropriate safeguarding occurs in the male estate to ensure that both these individuals are safe, but also so we don't end up in the circular gridlock of "this is transphobic/ my human rights/ I suffer from male violence too" in debates about this.

It's not up to women to fix this; Men need to step up to protect all males and not offload on to women.

Agree.

Mindfulness if it's done well isn't 'rumination' at all. It can be truly wonderful - it also doesn't work for everyone, needs to be taught by a properly qualified teacher and can even risk triggering mental health problems in some people if misapplied.

I think you're quite right about the need for children to roll about outdoors and just play.

Yes. It's also quite rare to listen to someone who has carefully read up, thought about, researched and reached their own conclusions and then is comfortable discussing them.

We're so used to people 'performing' in interviews, falling back on pat lines, not listening or responding, not really engaging.

Refreshing to hear an intelligent argument presented in a very down to earth human way - not point scoring and not evangelising.

I understand what she is saying. Men who look or act effeminate may be targeted for rape by the Mr Big who runs the prison. Despite there being plenty of situational homosexuality, the culture in a male prison is very homophobic. The answer to this, as she also says - and as we know, and as still happens with most male trans prisoners - is proper safeguarding within the men's prison estate. Not endangering women by moving male inmates into women's prisons.

Well that was well worth the watch. I could listen to her talk for hours.

Having watched it all now I wanted to share an observation. Helen isn't hyperbolic and she doesn't over-explain her view, I imagine that this is because she doesn't feel the need to defend it. She demonstrates empathy without diverting from reality. She moved away from talking about Oli in an individual sense and directed the conversation back to the big picture. The same for when KK mentioned that they have a member of staff who had "gender dysphoria" (interesting that he didn't say 'trans').

She is a highly skilled orator and I think a lot of that comes from plainly speaking the truth. No wonder people listen to her and want to interview her, she doesn't make it complicated, quite the opposite!

Another who is just in awe of the way Helen Joyce explains complicated things so clearly. Also in awe of her ability to gently intervene just as her interviewers are heading down dodgy pathways (the migrant issue) and correcting them.

I have taken note of her use of 'erotic cross dressing' and will adopt the expression myself. I follow her talks in the hope that some of her clarity of thought and expression will rub off on me. She's amazing.

Ooh I've just seen this. I might have an early night and go and snuggle fluffy purring things whilst I watch it in bed.

night night

I remember when they first interviewed Posie and their jaws dropped when she said things like 'men aren't women'. Now they are big old Terfy bigots.

I am also interested in the whole 'thinking they can access spaces not designed for them encourages people to think changing gender is a thing'. So true.

I love listening to Helen. She is so clear without being rude, I don't know how she does it.

Part of the shift by Konstantin Kisin happened last year when he became a first-time father. I think he now has a much stronger viceral reaction when he hears about the medicalisation of children and what that means for their futures.

YouTube / trigger offered me the latest Posie one which was excellent.

I feel that the trigger team have become much more aware and on board with recognising the issue with every interview they do.

It's an excellent platform. Brilliant questioning.

Oli didn't mention it but his change happened not too long after his marriage. So I wonder if his husband/husband's family may have helped bring him back down to earth.

Thank you for this. Olli London is a complex figure and I'm still trying to decide what I think of him. He made me feel uncomfortable for a long time, but have seen recent tweets that made me reconsider. I'll watch that one and get back to you.

If anyone hasn’t already signed it, this is the petition she mentioned near the end (0:59 mins in).

www.mumsnet.com/talk/petitions_noticeboard/4668426-petition-update-the-equality-act-to-make-clear-the-characteristic-sex-is-biological-sex?page=1