Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Gillian Keegan: guidance does not need to legally “define what a girl is”.

64 replies

TheNoWord · 07/01/2023 21:00

Interview in Sunday Times tomorrow

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/e4e7f968-8eb2-11ed-a303-61858d68dcd6?shareToken=98e0e41c946c1aeea295dc21965f41e6

“Keegan supports the idea of “safe spaces” for biological women but says the guidance does not need to legally “define what a girl is”. Rather it should set out how individuals can be supported.”

“I’m very clear what a woman is . . . and that includes me . . . but it doesn’t include anybody that has a penis,” she says. “But I think the most important thing that we need to do is to make sure that we sensitively support children and families and that we accommodate them in the best way we can.”

OP posts:
New posts on this thread. Refresh page
TooBigForMyBoots · 13/01/2023 12:32

Thank you @RPMcMurphy.Thanks

RPMcMurphy · 13/01/2023 09:53

TooBigForMyBoots · 11/01/2023 12:23

Do you have a link to that Conservatives For Women newsletter @Needmoresleep? I visited their website but couldn't find it.Thanks

You can sign up for it here:

conservativesforwomen.org/join-us

TooBigForMyBoots · 11/01/2023 12:23

Do you have a link to that Conservatives For Women newsletter @Needmoresleep? I visited their website but couldn't find it.Thanks

TooBigForMyBoots · 10/01/2023 19:05

What constructive criticism would you like? That men should not be in single sex spaces? That women and girls' safety and dignity should be protected by this government, when instead they are whittling them away day by day? Perhaps that the Tories should come clean on how far they've pushed this self ID shitshow, apologise and sort it out instead of being ambiguous, lying or kicking the can down the road as they are doing.

I think you're placing a ridiculous amount of importance on a job I had 26 years ago @Needmoresleep.Confused I'm 26 years older. 13 years into a Tory government that has and continues to strip us off our rights. And a whole lot angrier.

I am not an equal opportunities critic for all parties, I'm only concerned with the one with the actual power. I have no time for gazing into an imaginary future when the fight is happening now!

ScrollingLeaves · 10/01/2023 18:36

Labour will bring in self-ID as a matter of course won’t they?

Needmoresleep · 10/01/2023 18:36

There is no constructive criticism. It is just slagging. Especially if you plan to use the same approach regardless of who is in power.

The real problem is that your posting is repetitive, regardless of thread, and regardless of whether a Labour or Conservative politician is being discussed.

What would you prefer GK did given the constraints of her position?

Given you were a Civil Servant I am surprised you approach things from a political rather than policy angle. I met DH working for the Civil Service and we tend to analyse different policies (COVID, inflation, women, whatever) for their own sake rather than on a party political basis. It is a habit I assume others have.

TooBigForMyBoots · 10/01/2023 17:58

I am not merely slagging off a single partyHmm, I am challenging the ongoing assault on women's rights by our government. The destruction that is happening today under the Tories!

When the next government come along I will criticise them.

Needmoresleep · 10/01/2023 17:39

What…I doubt many on the thread are Tory party members. However it is the Government of the day and people will want to discuss their approach to schools policy.

Slagging off a single party, gets you nowhere. Which presumably as a former, impartial, Civil Servant you already know.

Sex is biology. It should not be a party political issue. In the same way that 100 years ago working class and upper class women worked together to get sufferage.

TooBigForMyBoots · 10/01/2023 16:51

This is not a Tory Members thread in the Politics Topic.Hmm This is FWR where the government should be challenged on their destruction of women's rights. Including the Education Minister's part in that.

I will not be silent. If Tory supporters need a space to talk where their party, the Government,Shock cannot be criticised maybe FWR isn't the place for that.

Needmoresleep · 10/01/2023 16:07

To be honest if you can see a debate beyond simply slamming the Tories, there probably is no wider discussion. To avoid disruption to other conversation you might start your own threads.

TooBigForMyBoots · 10/01/2023 14:51

What wider discussion am I disrupting by holding the government to account on a thread about Department of Education guidance?

TooBigForMyBoots · 10/01/2023 14:45

Needmoresleep · 10/01/2023 07:35

According to the Conservatives for Women newsletter about half Tory MPs have now confirmed that they know what a woman is. This is a huge increase on last year and a long way from the days when David TC Davies MP was the lone GC voice in Parliament, but there is still a good way to go.

TooBig is right to remind us that this is not enough. Equally I am sure they would agree Labour, the SNP and others also have plenty of room for improvement.

Single sex spaces for women is not a party issue. We need everyone on board. Politicians, the Civil Service, teachers, police, right down to our families and neighbours. It is up to each of us to do what we can, perhaps by writing to our MP, perhaps by questioning something at school, perhaps simply by sharing concerns with family and friends.

The gender bollocks movement is not just down to the Tories. Labour are equally culpable. Blaming one party gets us nowhere. The fact that both Gillian Keegan and Keir Starmer feel the need to sit on the fence rather than turn up on a Stonewall awards night to soak in the praise is a step forward. The next step is to make that fence an uncomfortable place to be. So write to your MP. Raise concerns with your kids schools about toilets or educational materials or sports in the hope that they push back against the Department of Education. Inform the Safe Schools Alliance of any problems. (My own guess here is that schools with their decade or more or Stonewall training, young teachers straight out of University and noticeable numbers of trans or NB pupils lobbying via their LGBTQ+++ groups, are the tail wagging the dog, and GK, given other priorities, is insufficiently interested/committed/informed to take this battle on.)

More specifically whilst TooBig is entitled to their perspective, I feel that it is important that we can have threads that look at individual Labour or Tory policies or approaches without too much thread disruption. MN provides a platform for women to speak to each other. Left wing women, right wing women, older, younger, straight or lesbian, rich or poor, disabled or able bodied, and from a variety of ethnic or other backgrounds. It is a fascinating window into other people’s thinking or experience, one which has often caused me to reconsider my assumptions. TooBig might consider whether disrupting normally polite conversation within gender threads with repeated complaints about Tories, whether justified or not, is helping them achieve their objectives. Our ability to define ourselves as women is fundamental and goes beyond politics. We need this space to talk.

Probably should have quoted your post in my reply.Blush

Needmoresleep · 10/01/2023 14:38

For a former civil servant you seem remarkably unnuanced. You will be aware of the different constraints on politicians and the fact that it might not always be possible to achieve objectives by using a specific tactic. Specifically noisy is not always the best approach.

The danger of repeating a single point in a noisy way is that it can disrupt any wider discussion others are trying to have. You may feel that their points are not worth hearing, but equally they may consider your interventions disruptive.

TooBigForMyBoots · 10/01/2023 13:38

@Needmoresleep, this is a thread about Gillian Keegan, the Tory minister for Education, I am disrupting nothing and have been nothing but polite despite the Ad homs aimed at me.

My objectives are the rights and safety of women. While posters are entitled to minimise the damage caused, and yet to be caused, by this government I do not have to validate it or accept it quietly. So I will continue to noisily point out the continued destruction of our rights.

I am not a they. I am she.Grin

ScrollingLeaves · 10/01/2023 09:02

Thank you, Needmoresleep, you have put things so well.

May I add that it was Labour who brought in the Gender Recognition Certificate 2004 without thinking it through properly. Imagine making it legal to lie about the most fundamental fact about human life.

To update the Equality Act to make clear that sex means biological sex, not sex as modified by a certificate, you may like to sign or share this petition:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/petitions_noticeboard/4668426-petition-update-the-equality-act-to-make-clear-the-characteristic-sex-is-biological-sex?page=1

MrsOvertonsWindow · 10/01/2023 07:49

Great post Needmoresleep. It's vital that we put pressure on MPs to ensure that the government issues balanced advice to school that reinforces the rights of girls to safe single sex spaces and ensures that schools don't unwittingly become enforcers for the queer theory soaked lobby groups who've being allowed to wreak havoc with children's mental health and understanding of reality.

Needmoresleep · 10/01/2023 07:35

According to the Conservatives for Women newsletter about half Tory MPs have now confirmed that they know what a woman is. This is a huge increase on last year and a long way from the days when David TC Davies MP was the lone GC voice in Parliament, but there is still a good way to go.

TooBig is right to remind us that this is not enough. Equally I am sure they would agree Labour, the SNP and others also have plenty of room for improvement.

Single sex spaces for women is not a party issue. We need everyone on board. Politicians, the Civil Service, teachers, police, right down to our families and neighbours. It is up to each of us to do what we can, perhaps by writing to our MP, perhaps by questioning something at school, perhaps simply by sharing concerns with family and friends.

The gender bollocks movement is not just down to the Tories. Labour are equally culpable. Blaming one party gets us nowhere. The fact that both Gillian Keegan and Keir Starmer feel the need to sit on the fence rather than turn up on a Stonewall awards night to soak in the praise is a step forward. The next step is to make that fence an uncomfortable place to be. So write to your MP. Raise concerns with your kids schools about toilets or educational materials or sports in the hope that they push back against the Department of Education. Inform the Safe Schools Alliance of any problems. (My own guess here is that schools with their decade or more or Stonewall training, young teachers straight out of University and noticeable numbers of trans or NB pupils lobbying via their LGBTQ+++ groups, are the tail wagging the dog, and GK, given other priorities, is insufficiently interested/committed/informed to take this battle on.)

More specifically whilst TooBig is entitled to their perspective, I feel that it is important that we can have threads that look at individual Labour or Tory policies or approaches without too much thread disruption. MN provides a platform for women to speak to each other. Left wing women, right wing women, older, younger, straight or lesbian, rich or poor, disabled or able bodied, and from a variety of ethnic or other backgrounds. It is a fascinating window into other people’s thinking or experience, one which has often caused me to reconsider my assumptions. TooBig might consider whether disrupting normally polite conversation within gender threads with repeated complaints about Tories, whether justified or not, is helping them achieve their objectives. Our ability to define ourselves as women is fundamental and goes beyond politics. We need this space to talk.

TooBigForMyBoots · 10/01/2023 02:32

I left the Civil Service in the late 90's @LK1972 having worked through the end of Thatcher's reforms, Major's government and the very beginning of Blair's. Whatever stakeholdersConfused there may be now, they are not Sir Humphreys.

How long have you been working in the CS @LK1972?

LK1972 · 10/01/2023 00:13

@HMSShminafore It is a good place to work and most people are pretty reasonable. It does feel sometimes that the idealism of younger staff tends to predispose them to wokeness. They tend to come from a good place though, they just bought into the prevailing narratives.

It can feel a bit slow and bureaucratic if you're coming from the private sector, but this is due to the decisions affecting so many people, and the constant danger of hostile coverage in the media, which the CS hates!

However, as Tallisker described, the benefits of working there are very good, and the work is varied and interesting.

BTW, 'Yes, Minister' is not as dated as you'd think. Stakeholders have changed, many the things are still very recognizable.

@TooBigForMyBoots Are you a Civil Servant or are you talking about things you know nothing about to hate on the Tories a bit more?

HMSShminafore · 09/01/2023 22:38

Tallisker · 08/01/2023 22:01

Please join. We need as many voices as we can get.

The flexible working is excellent, my lot are shit hot on well-being and although the pay is a bit rubbish, you can progress by moving job/department and indeed are expected and supported to do so.

There is a new staff network in my department for GC people, so there is movement in the right direction. It's tough (there is a thread about this network somewhere, sorry I can't link from my phone) but at least it is a start. I think it needs to change from within.

I wish I'd joined the civil service years ago, the pension is one of the best, annual leave is reasonably generous, and you can literally play a part in making things better for the citizens of the United Kingdom.

Many thanks! Yes, I think I found the thread about the GC staff network. Will bear this in mind when looking.

Tallisker · 08/01/2023 22:01

HMSShminafore · 08/01/2023 20:45

With all due respect, I'd rather hear from the posters who actually work in the CS and know what the deal is on the ground.

Plus, you've clearly never watched Yes Minister.

Please join. We need as many voices as we can get.

The flexible working is excellent, my lot are shit hot on well-being and although the pay is a bit rubbish, you can progress by moving job/department and indeed are expected and supported to do so.

There is a new staff network in my department for GC people, so there is movement in the right direction. It's tough (there is a thread about this network somewhere, sorry I can't link from my phone) but at least it is a start. I think it needs to change from within.

I wish I'd joined the civil service years ago, the pension is one of the best, annual leave is reasonably generous, and you can literally play a part in making things better for the citizens of the United Kingdom.

Tallisker · 08/01/2023 21:53

TooBigForMyBoots · 08/01/2023 20:48

Yes Minister is 40 years ago. Thatcher took care of the Sir Humphreys.

Don't you believe it!

But I'm not talking about that level of Whitehall mandarin. I'm talking about policy advisors pushing an ideology to senior civil servants and therefore ministers.

In my directorate, more than half of our people are under 35 and a lot in their 20s. My director isn't yet 50 and says he's an old fart and doesn't understand the TQ+++ bit even though he's gay. A while back he said he needs to be educated and some of our prominent LGBT people have done just that, presenting to senior leadership team in how to be 'inclusive' and trans allies. So the director now calls himself 'cis'. This is how it happens, there is no opportunity to present to SLT the GC side and where rights of differing groups clash. So SLT (the old farts) have their children telling them at home that loads of their friends are trans and/or non-binary, and their junior staff at work are sending the same message. It has been flying under the radar for so long thanks to 'No debate' that unless they go looking for it, information such as found and discussed on these boards just isn't routinely available.

TooBigForMyBoots · 08/01/2023 20:48

Yes Minister is 40 years ago. Thatcher took care of the Sir Humphreys.

HMSShminafore · 08/01/2023 20:45

With all due respect, I'd rather hear from the posters who actually work in the CS and know what the deal is on the ground.

Plus, you've clearly never watched Yes Minister.

TooBigForMyBoots · 08/01/2023 20:36

@HMSShminafore, the Civil Service are there to work for the government. The trans shitshow is being pushed by this Tory government. Accusations that the CS are to blame is another one of their lies. The Conservatives have been in power for 13 years, put their own mandarins in place and have had an unprecedented amount of senior CS that have publicly complained and resigned.

It Wasn't Me is going to be their campaign slogan in the next election.🙄