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Original poster

The Times: Westminster poised to intervene over gender bill assent

121 replies

ResisterRex · 07/01/2023 19:47

Begins:

"UK ministers are willing in principle to take the unprecedented step of blocking a bill passed by Holyrood after receiving legal advice on Nicola Sturgeon’s contentious gender recognition reforms.

Informed sources say that Rishi Sunak’s administration has the political appetite to intervene in the controversy over self-ID, opting for direct action to deny the Scottish parliament royal assent rather than referring the matter to the Supreme Court.

It follows concern about possible risks posed to safe spaces for girls and women by cutting the waiting time for legally changing gender, making the option available to 16-year-olds and eliminating the need for a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria."

More here:

Westminster poised to intervene over gender bill assent.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/9864f1e4-8ea9-11ed-a321-77184a1c82e4?shareToken=9342e07f5c59124eb13d7c1a93f40d5ee_

OP posts:
Signalbox · 10/01/2023 08:51

And the Scottish GRR does not conflict with the EA as single sex exemptions still exist. The phrase "for all purposes" has always been there. And it because of that that women are only allowed a few limited SSE - and have to prove they deserve them.

Didn't Lady Haldane recently decide that men with a GRC became legally female for the purpose of the EA. This means that the Scottish GRR potentially makes it easier for men to become "legally female" in the whole of the UK. This means that the Scottish GRR affects the whole of the UK not just Scotland. This law hasn't been debated in England and Wales so why should we put up with Scotland's shoddy, ill-thought-through laws here.

nilsmousehammer · 10/01/2023 08:01

ResisterRex · 10/01/2023 07:56

Fact-free hysteria & hyperbole. Business as usual from Stonewall:

Stonewall warns government not to block gender recognition bill

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/abe64182-9070-11ed-8b99-f233af7a7956?shareToken=c7bb51338954e838903842adcd8415aa

Oh the horror of permitting women equality of rights and access!

Women should absolutely be subordinated to the absolute freedoms of men, lose their equality, their words, their access and become a subclass or it will be a human rights disaster!

Yeah no, it really won't.

Original poster
ResisterRex · 10/01/2023 07:56

Fact-free hysteria & hyperbole. Business as usual from Stonewall:

Stonewall warns government not to block gender recognition bill

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/abe64182-9070-11ed-8b99-f233af7a7956?shareToken=c7bb51338954e838903842adcd8415aa

OP posts:
Original poster
ResisterRex · 09/01/2023 22:08

ArabellaScott · 09/01/2023 20:12

Saw that, Resister. This is going to be interesting!

Quite!

OP posts:
nilsmousehammer · 09/01/2023 21:56

Quite. The only way to 'live as a woman' is to live within a biologically female body. Anything a biological female does is womaning.

I had friends in university who lived as Klingons by dressing as and enacting the way they imagined a Klingon might, with deep emotional attachment to the idea. However had a friend decided to live as a Chinese person, or a blind person in the same way, I don't think they would have been seen as doing something inoffensive.

cosmiccosmos · 09/01/2023 21:36

'How else can a male confirm he is living as a woman?'

What does 'living as a woman' mean? NO man can tell anyone this or do it because a man can only live as a man.

JellySaurus · 09/01/2023 21:26

*"Some countries are basically self-ID plus a friends countersignature to affirm the new gender identity /9

FRIEND AFFIRMS: Quebec, Victoria, Nevada"

Your mate says yes??*

How else can a man confirm he is living as a woman?

ArabellaScott · 09/01/2023 21:24

Yes, 'self-ID plus a friends countersignature to affirm the new gender identity'

ResisterRex · 09/01/2023 20:42

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ResisterRex · 09/01/2023 20:38

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ResisterRex · 09/01/2023 20:38

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Original poster
ResisterRex · 09/01/2023 20:37

Overseas GRCs thread by FPFW:

twitter.com/fairplaywomen/status/1612482794785247238?s=46&t=PW_5rL5EwisuNZ9ViaXe8Q

This one in particular:

"All these countries/states fall short of UK standards in some way and should now be removed from the list /5"

40 countries should be removed according to that thread - if I read it right. And look at this(!):

"Some countries are basically self-ID plus a friends countersignature to affirm the new gender identity /9

FRIEND AFFIRMS: Quebec, Victoria, Nevada"

Your mate says yes??

OP posts:
IwantToRetire · 09/01/2023 20:28

The government statement is irrelevant to Scotland as it is about overseas territories. As yet Scotland is still part of the UK!

And the Scottish GRR does not conflict with the EA as single sex exemptions still exist. The phrase "for all purposes" has always been there. And it because of that that women are only allowed a few limited SSE - and have to prove they deserve them.

ArabellaScott · 09/01/2023 20:12

Saw that, Resister. This is going to be interesting!

Original poster
ResisterRex · 09/01/2023 17:36

She's also brought Nikki da Costa and Mercy Muroki into the fold. Slightly silly presentation of the story but still. Da Costa is the one I'm most familiar with as she did a lot on the gender ideology side of things:

order-order.com/2023/01/09/exclusive-kemi-calls-in-intellectual-support-to-resist-woke-policy-skew-in-government/

"As the two-year anniversary of the Sewell Report approaches, and with Nicola Sturgeon’s Gender Recognition Bill threatening women-only spaces across the UK, Guido is happy to report that Kemi Badenoch has beefed up her team in the Equalities Unit by appointing Nikki Da Costa and Mercy Muroki as Policy Fellows"

OP posts:
FigRollsAlly · 09/01/2023 17:33

Thank goodness for Kemi!

Original poster
ResisterRex · 09/01/2023 17:27

Written statement from Kemi:

www.gov.uk/government/speeches/written-ministerial-statement-to-parliament-regarding-the-gender-recognition-act-2004-consultation

questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-statements/detail/2023-01-09/hcws482

"I would like to notify the House of the progress we are making in implementing our 2020 response to the Gender Recognition Act (2004) consultation. In particular, the House will wish to be aware that I will be updating the list of approved overseas countries and territories (provided for under Section 1(1)(b) of the Gender Recognition Act) to make sure it does not compromise the integrity of the Gender Recognition Act. This follows previous periodic updates.
The list of approved overseas countries and territories was last updated in 2011. A commitment was made to keeping the list under review.
There are now some countries and territories on the list who have made changes to their systems since then and would not now be considered to have equivalently rigorous systems. It should not be possible for a person who would not satisfy the criteria to obtain UK legal gender recognition to use the overseas recognition route to obtain a UK Gender Recognition Certificate. This would damage the integrity and credibility of the process of the Gender Recognition Act.
We are finalising details of overseas countries and territories to be removed from the list via an affirmative Statutory Instrument. These comprise countries and territories where there is a clear indication that the country now no longer has a system at least as rigorous as those in the Gender Recognition Act 2004. We are undertaking a thorough checking system to verify our understanding of each overseas system in question.
I will formally engage with other colleagues and Ministers from devolved governments in advance of laying the Statutory Instrument. The Government is committed to ensuring that this outcome of the Gender Recognition Act consultation is followed through and upheld and the overseas list will be updated via Statutory Instrument more regularly in future."

OP posts:
Original poster
ResisterRex · 09/01/2023 17:16

I was surprised to see this, this morning. The Politico newsletter linked to the KPSS letter. Previously, I've had the impression they were more in the TWAW/what are you wimmin whingeing about kinda camp.

It may depend on who's writing it though, and I think there was a change in that a while ago but I don't know enough about who's who, to know if that accounts for the seeming change in direction. Here:

www.politico.eu/newsletter/london-playbook/political-life-support-held-to-accounts-xennial-downing-street/

"Westminster vs. Holyrood latest: Scots who legally change their gender following the passage of Scotland’s new gender laws may also have to apply for a U.K. recognition certificate in order for it to be recognized over the border, according to the Times’ Matt Dathan. Scotland Secretary Alister Jack is meanwhile coming under pressure from campaigners (and those in his own government) who argue failure to stop the bill would have a “disproportionate impact on the rights and protections of the most vulnerable of biological women in the prison estate.” See the campaign group letter here.

Meanwhile: The U.K. government is still considering ways to block the Holyrood gender legislation altogether. The Sunday Times had the nugget that Rishi Sunak is of the mind to directly deny the Scottish parliament royal assent, rather than get the courts involved."

OP posts:
FromAMNtter · 09/01/2023 15:00

Regular under my occasional name change when I post more identifying info.

I've written to my MP today (very TWAW) asking him to support steps to refer the GRR to the Supreme Court or block it via s35 as it creates a confusion mishmash of different GRC processes. How can a Scottish GRC process not comply with the requirements of UK legislation? How can sex be changed for all purposes throughout the UK without any UK wide legislation etc.

I've also raised concerns about how GRC interact with the DBS process. I sit on conduct panels for a regulated profession. I don't know what happens if someone who is struck off reapplies under their new identity? If they have their qualifications changed to their new name could they apply for admission and would the previous ban be picked up?
Do criminal convictions and SHPO transfer to the new identity?
I've raised this and asked them to find out the answers in relation to the current regime and think about if the GRR impacts that. If a sex offender can use the Scottish regime to bypass previous orders and restrictions in 3 months with no medical review that is even worse than the current mess.

Boiledbeetle · 09/01/2023 12:26

happydappy2 · 09/01/2023 09:20

Of the 8 protected characteristics, sex is the ONLY one a person can 'identify into.' People can't self identify as a particular race or as disabled....the only solution is to repeal the GRA (imho.) or all sex based protections for women are instantly rendered meaningless.

There's an article somewhere about some guy who is transwoman and transdisabled.

So Give them time.😑😶

Nuts the world has gone nuts!!!

Datun · 09/01/2023 12:12

If the government can't find a way to enforce the SSEs, so that women have the expectation that their boundaries are protected, then they need to start trying to change the culture.

In fact, they should be doing this anyway.

Take the entire issue out of schools. Regulate online content.

They have tried tackling EDI jobs in the public sector, by reducing them. What they should be doing, simultaneously, is replacing the content.

They're playing whack a mole here, and it's not enough.

Each symptom which appears to be getting out of hand is half-heartedly addressed, but the actual problem isn't.

IcakethereforeIam · 09/01/2023 11:53

If you're not permitted to ask If someone has a GRC, what is the point of them? If a bloke has a dash of lipstick and a brass neck what to stop him going where he wants anyway? Even into wrong sex prisons. Changing rooms, rape crisis centres, domestic violence shelters, there are lots of examples of men in them or kicking off (and getting apologies) because they've been refused access. Most of these blokes won't have a GRC because, at this time, most don't, they don't need them.

I'm glad they're updating the list of approved countries. The current list includes places whose requirements for gaining a GRC have subsequently been greatly eased and should therefore have already been removed. Apparently it was just an oversight that this had not already been doneHmm

JellySaurus · 09/01/2023 11:34

happydappy2 · 09/01/2023 09:20

Of the 8 protected characteristics, sex is the ONLY one a person can 'identify into.' People can't self identify as a particular race or as disabled....the only solution is to repeal the GRA (imho.) or all sex based protections for women are instantly rendered meaningless.

Faith/belief? Extremely difficult to prove or disprove.

Parallels gender identity in this respect.

Datun · 09/01/2023 10:12

LangClegsInSpace · 09/01/2023 10:04

How does this work in practice? If their birth certificate was originally issued in Scotland then they will get a new birth cerificate, whether the UK recognises their GRC or not. There is nothing on the new birth certificate to say it has been falsified.

Show quote history

Quite.

The issue keeps being 'if you're not allowed to use your eyes, what are you supposed to use?'