Help with ASD DS and non-binary

That was posted on twitter today. I thought some elements from it might be helpful to you, OP.

THREAD FROM ELSEWHEREI'm not an expert or anything, but as an autistic person who received informed consent hormones/surgery, regrets it, and doesn't feel like my consent was truly informed...here's how I, personally, think things could be improved to help autistic people make informed choices.First, I've gotten yelled at before for people misreading me re: autism before, so to be crystal clear: none of this is saying autistic people don't have autonomy, nor is it infantalizing them (us?) or implying they can't be trusted to make choices about their own lives. HOWEVER

there ARE differences in how autistic people work, & acknowledging that allows things to be MORE accessible. Many autistic people are very capable but perceive things differently than non-autistics intend, and that can be accommodated for by changing how information is presented.
I don't think autistic people are stupid, I think we think differently than others (which is why there's a name for our neurotype at all...) Anyway, disclaimer out of the way, here's what I think might help.

^1: Acknowledging that many autistic adults — particularly females and PoC — do not know they're autistic. I don't think it's reasonable (or necessary) to give everyone seeking transition related healthcare a full evaluation, but I think screening with something like the raads-r-
could be a jumping off point for either further evaluation OR just further discussion and working with the assumption that the person may benefit from an autism centred approach.^

2: Making it explicitly clear to the patient that an autism diagnosis will NOT disqualify them from receiving transition related procedures or medication, or remove their autonomy to choose, so that they are willing to freely discuss it and to disclose if they have a diagnosis.

3: Ensuring that doctors are aware that two very common autistic traits are being highly trusting and highly literal, and how this might affect an autistic individual's expectations of what the treatments they're seeking will do for them.

I think doctors need to be very forthcoming and blunt about what these treatments will and will NOT do. Eg "testosterone might make you feel more comfortable in your body, and might make it easier for other people to see you as male, but it is not capable of changing your sex -
and is not guaranteed to make you pass as male.

The effects are highly variable and you are not guaranteed to get all of the ones you desire to the extent you desire". Additionally, doctors need to be aware of some very common sentiments in trans spaces that are not true -
eg. "nobody actually regrets transitioning" and "cis people don't ever think about their gender", and ensure that autistic patients understand that these statements have political undertones, no evidence behind them, and cannot be taken as literal fact.

Some autistic people are quite adept and differentiating between literal and figurative (or simply misleading) statements, but many are not, so it's not safe to assume that things like that are obvious. I was told (& believed) that T makes everyone pass, for example. It doesn't!

4: From that, understanding that feeling disconnected from peers/society/the self is fairly common among autistic people, trans or not, and exploring other potential causes of dysphoria while remaining explicitly open to the idea that transition is the best path for the patient.

The ways autism can mimic dysphoria (sensory issues, literal interpretation of gender roles, not understanding gendered socialization) should be discussed, and whether those factors are impacting the person's experience. Again, solely for their own understanding of themselves.
There should also be an understanding that many autistic people have difficulty interpreting their emotions, so they should be encouraged to consider multiple angles even if they still end up landing on their original interpretation. It shouldn't be assumed that they already have

5: Doctors need to be blunt about there being multiple types of "passing" — people thinking you are biologically the gender you identify as, and people understanding what you're going for and respecting it. Not in the sense that the former is BETTER, but again: literal & trusting

It needs to be explicitly clear that being treated as the gender one identifies as does not ALWAYS translate into being seen as that gender by society at large, and that they will never stop being trans. It's not a tragedy, but they need to KNOW. Literal thinkers may not.

They need to be able to make informed choices and that includes the kind of sucky knowledge that that they very well might be seen as trans forever. That might be totally fine with them — and there's nothing wrong with that — but they can only decide that if they're aware of it.
Basically, I think people deserve to know if they're autistic before making decisions like this and deserve to have all the facts, and to have them presented in an accessible way. I think autistic people deserve the opportunity to discuss the impact of their autism without fear.

As autistic people we DO have strengths, and one is that we tend to be highly logical. I think that, given the opportunity to discuss the reality of our situation without judgment or fear of losing access to care, we can really explore ourselves. Healthcare providers can assist!

In my ideal world autistic people (everyone, actually) would get a whole lot of mental health care and treatment for our very common comorbidities (depression, anxiety, etc) before doing informed consent, but the above are simply things I think could be fairly easily implemented.

Source

Apologies again OP.

(You’re welcome @NeuroWasabi - I hope you find it helpful. I was worried about seeming rude &/or unkind when my intent was truly neither; indeed I was worried you might start to feel a might jumped on as someone (as far as I can tell) engaging in good faith but finding her every thought shot down by multiple posters! Nobody has the intent of being unkind, but I can see it might feel a bit overwhelming to have a dozen people telling you “no! absolutely not!” every time you post. It’s not done with the intent of silencing you or anything sinister - posters wouldn’t trouble themselves to hunt out links to share if it were.

Trans Activists routinely demand that women “educate” themselves. What they mean is “unquestioningly accept our propaganda”. Over here we are all for people actually educating themselves; & eager to facilitate it. Unsurprising, of course that [multiply privileged] males fail to understand the power & significance education holds for the female of the species… 🙄)

@NitroNine Thank you so much for taking the time to share that info with me. I'm definitely going to research thoroughly ASAP, so I'm sure that will be helpful.

OP- Sorry for derailing the thread, all the best

Sorry OP, I got sidetracked. Have you contacted Beat at all? His behaviour sounds a bit as if it’s evolved from one type of OSFED to another, something that’s quite common. They’ve a specific info page on their site about men with EDs - over-exercising is a really common presentation; & such visceral disgust at his body would make sense if viewed through that lens. I might be wrong, but if it is that, getting him to talk about it might help unravel the gender stuff somewhat.

Another factor at play here is an increased awareness of young people’s mental health. On the plus side it has brought deeper understanding of adolescent anxiety. On the minus side it can tip into pathologising the normal human condition: anything other than constant happiness in one’s child is seen as a terrifying problem that requires treatment. “Your kids have to learn to live in their unhappiness,” Obama said, correctly.

This is an interesting article as the Bayswater group has been suggested as a source of support, @Mossball

Hadley meets Bayswater Support Group www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4714858-hadley-meets-bayswater-support-group

“Cis” women 🧐

The word is “women”. The c-word is ideologically loaded. It’s also meaningless.

Most of the arguments against trans people seem to be based on cis women being disadvantaged or hurt

There's no such thing as "cis". Women are female, and don't come in two sexes. MTF trans people are male.

Cisgender means that you're the same gender that the genitalia you were born with indicates, I suppose

Er, no. We got past all those regressive stereotypes years ago. Having a vagina doesn’t mean you have to wear dresses/lipstick/simper and giggle/ can’t be a scientist or mathematician 🙄

OP, perhaps you could utilise his previous obsessions and point out how achieving them wasn’t enough for him so he had to have a new target? Suggest that his unhappiness with his body isn’t because there’s anything wrong with it.

Get him out doing activities, preferably ones where his physical body is a benefit eg sports, or even singing with his deep voice.

This is an excellent point.

Can you direct the hyper-focus outwards and away from the self? Towards anything other than “identity”? At the very least, get him off the Internet.

Sorry to follow the derail OP

I think trying to get your ds involved in some regular activities outside the house would be good. Ones which provide positive feedback and boost his self-esteem, and maybe use his newly developed strength! You know him best and have an idea what he’d enjoy - sport/physical challenge/community groups/martial arts (v good for obsessives!) Might need to bribe him to try it to start with.
This helped with my friend’s dd who sounds similar. Just giving her brain something else to focus on was helpful!

A kind personal trainer? Join a sports group, cycling?

NeuroWasabi, not sure where you got your reference from, but it doesn’t say what you claim. It reports research into sexualities, focussed on asexuality, among people with ASD. It has absolutely no reference to trans or non-binary identities. The abstract is shown below

‘Existing research suggests that people with Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD) are more likely than those without ASD to self-identify as asexual, or as being on the asexual spectrum. This study contributes to the literature by exploring aspects of sexuality and well-being in a large, community-based sample of young women (18–30 years old) with ASD ( N  = 247) and comparing the experiences of those with asexual spectrum identities and those with other sexual orientations (e.g., gay, bisexual, heterosexual). In the present sample, asexual participants reported less sexual desire and fewer sexual behaviors than those with other sexual orientations, but greater sexual satisfaction. Being on the asexual spectrum also was associated with lower generalized anxiety symptoms. Clinical and research implications are discussed.”

I would talk to them about body changes and being accepting of their body. No one can change sex so they need to understand that all of this going on at the moment is cultural and they are best not trying to define themselves in a way that essentially is a “fashion”.

I think you feel that sex and gender are intrinsically linked because you live that reality - it is for you, but trans people don't because they don't live that reality - it isn't for them.

Why have you decided that?

My reality is that I have no gender; it doesn't exist for me and I am simply and only myself.

(On reflection, if you are unclear as to the significance of the document hyperlinked at “power”, this Spectator article provides context.)

@NeuroWasabi
I'd guess that trans people have some kind of brain difference or maybe hormonal difference, but definitely a biological difference to account for why they don't feel attached to their bodily gender and therefore feel awful.
No (unlike homosexuality); no; & “trans” now doesn’t [have to] involve any kind of dysphoria - that’s what the push for demedicalisation is about. Indeed, trans people who try to insist that you must have gender dsyphoria to be trans are referred to as “TruScum” & vilified as “gatekeepers”. Our sex is coded into our every cell - even retinas can be differentiated by sex (& AI will correctly sex trans people’s retinal scans).

I would very strongly suggest you read the “Break It Down For Me” thread - yes, at 37 pages it’s long, but it is a good way to bring yourself up to speed. Huge amounts of nonsense identifying as science has been published &/or seeped into the collective consciousness over the last decade or so; being influenced by that; the media; & experiences/knowledge of old-fashioned transsexuals - plus, crucially, female socialisation - makes women inclined to Be Kind. In fact, there’s absolutely no reason we should Be Kind just because our oppressors have popped on a frock while leveraging their political power.

Trans people in the UK are not an oppressed minority. They are not at risk of violence - they’re more likely to murder someone than be murdered. Campaigners [ab]use statistics from Brazil (which relate to the country’s staggeringly high murder rate of people working as prostitutes) to try to give the appearance trans people in the UK are under threat; and they tell young people (& their families) over & over again that they are near-universally hated & [attempted] suicide is so common amongst their peers as to be normal for “trans” children. There is a trend amongst trans people to claim taking cross-sex hormones literally changes their sex; some claim to be “intersex” when they do not have any kind of VSD; & there is an absolute refusal to accept the proof that trans women do not belong in female sports. Males are being moved into female prisons by claiming they “feel” female - including rapists, who unsurprisingly go on to [attempt to] rape again. Males being granted permission to use female toilets & changing rooms has increased voyeurism & sexual assaults - & the ones we know about are despite a deliberate & concerted attempt to prevent the collection of this evidence. Trans Activists will insist there is no evidence of mixed sex facilities putting women at risk - the evidence available is dismissed as “anecdotal”. What’s the sexual assault of a few wee girls when there are middle aged [white] men who need the “validation” of changing clothing/showering/bathing/excreting next to women & girls [who do not consent]?

@hennylovespens Well this is getting ever more confusing for me! So would you say that you have no problem with trans people as long as they agree that they always remain the sex they were born with? So they could be male sex but female gender if they transitioned and vice versa?

I agree with what you said about women or men being however they want, without having to worry about it being correct for their gender, sex or whatever. It always infuriated me to be made to wear girly clothes or have supposedly feminine hobbies or interests, or worse, that I shouldn't have 'male' interests - that's not for girls. Or later 'oh, you don't look girly, you must be a lesbian, and if you say no you must be a repressed lesbian'. Maybe when all that rubbish stops then less people will become trans and just be ok being a bit different, but maybe it's a related issue where people are essentially telling other people what they should do, be, feel, etc?

Personally I’d find him a therapist (a normal one rather than woke one). Also build on his interests to build confidence, skill and engagement in things that will bring him joy and meaning in his life. Getting a small part time job could be a start

what are his hobbies and interests?

A LGBT organisation selects a number of their neurodiverse clients to take a survey which means it is not going to be representative of the general population.

I help to run a large autistic women's organisation and the majority of both men and women are happy identifying with their birth sex. There are some trans and NB people but they are in the minority.

"I think you feel that sex and gender are intrinsically linked because you live that reality - it is for you, but trans people don't because they don't live that reality - it isn't for them.*"
*
I have to say it's quite the opposite. Sex and gender aren't linked in the slightest. Sex is a biological fact and Gender is a social construct. There are no gendered traits or personality. It's actually trans ideology that reduces womanhood down to aesthetics, it's superficial and we should be teaching children they can dress, behave and enjoy whatever they like but sex is immutable.

Biological sex isn't a feeling. Trans culture promotes unhealthy stereotypes whilst claiming to rail against them/ be oppressed by them.

@NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision I'd guess that trans people have some kind of brain difference or maybe hormonal difference, but definitely a biological difference to account for why they don't feel attached to their bodily gender and therefore feel awful. Maybe in the future this could be fixed, so that their mind and body agree without changing the body. That has to be seen as a last resort, but I'd say the same for cosmetic surgery too. How many women get breast implants, fillers etc to make themselves more comfortable with their bodies?

Artificial intelligence has become advanced in a short time. We even have the capability to add robot parts to the human brain and body, so I think we have to acknowledge that what we understand about being human isn't what it used to be.

I think you feel that sex and gender are intrinsically linked because you live that reality - it is for you, but trans people don't because they don't live that reality - it isn't for them. However, whether the inner experience of a transwoman is the same as a ciswoman... I doubt it. However, I'm almost certain that my inner experience of being a woman (not being very feminine) is vastly different to that of most women. I don't think it matters much as we're all individuals anyway.

Most of the arguments against trans people seem to be based on cis women being disadvantaged or hurt, which is understandable IMO. I wouldn't be surprised if there were people doing it for the wrong reasons, there are always bad eggs.

No I don't think I have, but do you think social contagion is a factor in how many people are gay or bi now, too? Or do you think that the gay/bi people are just able to express themselves more freely in our culture?

I think it's probably much the same. It did concern me to read a personal account of a young person who had surgery or hormone treatment and then regretted it as they felt their original gender was correct. I think anything like that with negative long term consequences should be strictly monitored, and this is such a new issue. I wouldn't be surprised if there were kids wanting to be trendy etc (in fact I've seen this with gender experimentation in my own experience of kids), but I think it's more likely that kids are often just changeable. Everyone goes through identity phases and surely some will move out of that phase at some point and regret it. Hopefully the medical community gets better at recognising one group from the other before any lasting changes are made.

Cisgender means that you're the same gender that the genitalia you were born with indicates, I suppose. I assume it must stand for something more impressive than my explanation.

Gender diverse I'd guess is a person having gender which is different to cisgender, but could also be non binary not just trans etc.

There seem to be an awful lot of different genders and sexualities being proposed... This for me is one of the most ridiculous parts of the whole debate. A lot of those will never stick, along with the pronoun options.

I'd guess non-heterosexual in that context would mean that the transperson wasn't attracted to the opposite gender? So someone with female genitals at birth would be attracted to women or non binaries... But I'm not certain... and I see your point!