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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Telegraph interview with Mumsnet founder

106 replies

TheNoWord · 07/01/2023 07:30

Some interesting comments about this board:

”“I wish it wasn’t an issue that created so much anger. For me, if you want to choose to be a woman, with all the disadvantages that entails, I’m going to embrace you. But biologically is a trans woman the same as a woman? I would say no.”

“There’s this tension because both sides are rightly worried about safety. Trans women feel they are not safe in male spaces because of male violence [if they’re forced, for example, to use male lavatories] and cis [heterosexual] women are nervous about that because they think this might be exploited by violent males. It gets my goat that women – and trans women are included – live with this spectre of male violence and no one politically or otherwise seems to saying: ‘this is the real issue.’”

www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/mumsnet-founder-users-have-extraordinarily-strong-vitriolic/

OP posts:
Boiledbeetle · 07/01/2023 09:31

@Helleofabore Oh I've had my second sleep after a quick wander through here about 4ish I think. Might be time for another one soon.

nilsmousehammer · 07/01/2023 09:30

Theeyeballsinthesky · 07/01/2023 09:24

This - I applaud Justine for letting FWR & the discussions here stand in the face of (what I imagine given the circles she moves in) unbelievable pressure both in work and in private

however she doesn’t seem proud of anything FWR has achieved because I also believe that without FWR & MN, we’d be where Scotland are

and yet was it the day after Maya’s victory that it was announced feminism boards would split into two?

How can she?

Justine is doing exactly what we bloody well need the government and all local authorities and civil institutions to do.

She is making it impossible to know what her own personal views are on the subject as not relevant while maintaining spaces for both beliefs and not allowing one to silence the other outside of the law. She makes it clear that it does not matter what she thinks personally, and does not involve her own feelings.

That used to be called things like 'integrity' and 'professionalism' back in the day, when those in positions of power and influence actually had some class. Before total emotional incontinence and infantile behaviour became the norm. I respect the hell out of her for it.

SerotinaPickeler · 07/01/2023 09:28

LaChatte · 07/01/2023 08:58

I disagree about it being a minority who feel very very strongly about it. It's a minority who are active in the discussion. Lots of us follow the board without participating, doesn't mean we don't feel strongly about it too.

Yes agree with this. I'm currently more of a 'strong follower' rather than a 'strong activist' because..life/mouse/DC awkwardness etc, but I will step up when it calls for more than ££s, petitions or letter writing. 🙀

NotBadConsidering · 07/01/2023 09:28

The laziness, cowardice and resulting sheer bloody ignorance of journalists infuriates me. Many of the women here write better in posts they knock out in a few minutes in a coffee break and it's way better researched and evidenced

See also:

Most posters here understand the medical implications and what actually happens to children with puberty blockers and wrong sex hormones far more than most doctors and can reference journal articles with good evidence and research to back it up.

Reuters write an article on detransitioners, or Amelia Gentleman writes an article on the worry of girls transitioning similar to posts that anyone here has probably casually knocked out over the last few years and they get a hearty clap on the back 🙄.

LaughingPriest · 07/01/2023 09:27

I agree that regardless of anything else, Justine is doing the most important thing she can do - keeping this forum going.

Helleofabore · 07/01/2023 09:25

I want to also thank Justine.

Thank you, Justine, for the space you protect.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 07/01/2023 09:24

NotBadConsidering · 07/01/2023 09:20

Mumsnet was the wedge. Let’s give Justine that I think.

But I’ve never understood why Justine isn’t incredibly proud of this fact. Maya has been on this forum and valued the support and her ruling was a landmark case. This forum has been instrumental in landmark legislation and Justine doesn’t seem to know or want to champion this. I don’t get it.

This - I applaud Justine for letting FWR & the discussions here stand in the face of (what I imagine given the circles she moves in) unbelievable pressure both in work and in private

however she doesn’t seem proud of anything FWR has achieved because I also believe that without FWR & MN, we’d be where Scotland are

and yet was it the day after Maya’s victory that it was announced feminism boards would split into two?

Helleofabore · 07/01/2023 09:23

Boiledbeetle · 07/01/2023 09:14

@Helleofabore morning sweetie. You ready. Well rested. Fingers cracked. Foot massages started!

What do you mean you'rd off out for the day????...But it's raining.

Ah Boiled! I have been up since the wee hours and have been typing for hours already. Time for second sleep.

I hope you have a fun day though!

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/01/2023 09:22

But I’ve never understood why Justine isn’t incredibly proud of this fact. Maya has been on this forum and valued the support and her ruling was a landmark case. This forum has been instrumental in landmark legislation and Justine doesn’t seem to know or want to champion this. I don’t get it.

I think she'll take full credit if/when the tables properly turn, and tbh I wouldn't begrudge her it.

nilsmousehammer · 07/01/2023 09:21

The laziness, cowardice and resulting sheer bloody ignorance of journalists infuriates me. Many of the women here write better in posts they knock out in a few minutes in a coffee break and it's way better researched and evidenced.

Why is there this 'squabble'?

Squabble?

Because - as an activist poster plainly and specifically laid out last night in a thread - this is about men requiring that all women suck up a sex based duty to be raped, excluded and disadvantaged, and see this as a fair price for the better psychological happiness and freedoms of some of the male sex. This is about requiring women to accept sex based disadvantage and discrimination and the horror of things such as rape and exclusion and being left in life threatening relationships so that a small percentage of men, less than 1% , can indulge in an uninterrupted role play that sex does not exist (for them.)

The hypocrisy and ludicracy is off the scale.

And the 'hate'? The reason some men and some women are desperate to silence these women and force their compliance? That would be because they perceive it as unacceptable that women say no to men, that penis portions do not extend to rights, that women will not gladly sacrifice and martyr themselves for men.

This reflects massive sexism. Massive. It is a massive issue between the ears of people of both sexes reflecting the one really acceptable prejudice left in the UK.

And no it's not 'just that bit of the site'. It is the exact same issue you see all over the site including the bits that the moderators are openly proud of.

The women helping other women escape who are locked in the bathroom with a black eye and a fractured cheekbone because he tried to strangle her two hours ago. Who know that the police won't do much because domestic and men gonna men.

The women helping the woman do a flit this morning with the kids to a refuge knowing he is at his most dangerous if he knows she is escaping. And no one but women are going to help, but the refuges are going to have men in them. (Except that women staff will fiddle the system as much as they dare in secret because men are gonna men.)

The women helping the woman with the MiL who is fixed in the belief that a good woman will lay down and surrender herself and her mind and body and sanity to keeping a man happy and doing what suits him. No one believes that the man should give the woman equality of care and consideration or sacrifice himself because men gonna men.

The women in maternity units who had a C section four hours ago and are being expected to manage a newborn alone on paracetamol. Because women don't feel pain like real people do and you can treat them in ways you'd never treat a man.

And now women should accept that some of them will be raped in the name of men's psychological betterment and this is supposed to somehow be ok?

Sexism. On crack. It's the same issue. It's always the same fucking issue .

"Well it's hateful cos men are so very distressed when they're told no, and expected to find answers within boundaries that protect other people's rights!"

Diddums.

I care about how the females feel in the situation the male person wants to expose them to. If you are not equally educated about and concerned about them as you are about the males, then you need to go and sort your sexist problem and prejudice out first before you 'squabble'.

NotBadConsidering · 07/01/2023 09:20

Mumsnet was the wedge. Let’s give Justine that I think.

But I’ve never understood why Justine isn’t incredibly proud of this fact. Maya has been on this forum and valued the support and her ruling was a landmark case. This forum has been instrumental in landmark legislation and Justine doesn’t seem to know or want to champion this. I don’t get it.

piedbeauty · 07/01/2023 09:19

Cis does not mean heterosexual 🙄🙄🙄

Boiledbeetle · 07/01/2023 09:19

And remember if any of the tourists that this will bring ask if they can take your picture, and to smile, the correct answer is "No! Fuck off you creep".

SleekMamma · 07/01/2023 09:18

Anothernauticant agreer.
Team Justine here.
I am amazed Mumsnet is still open. She must be under so much pressure that we are not aware of.

If you are reading Justine, thanks for keeping Mumsnet going in the face of bitter and nasty opposition.

It really is like the witch hunts - ooh women talking! Down with that sort of thing.
Unfuckingbelievable in 2023 but there you go.
Thanks J.

ResisterRex · 07/01/2023 09:14

The article also mentions the lack of algorithm on MN (below). That, plus the style of MN whereby you have to read the thread (well, you should!) does mean you will stumble over discussions and that you need to critically engage with a thread.

Here in this "dedicated group", we know some posters don't do that. And their points never stand as a result. Possibly as a further result, it gets bumped into active, and you get more women engaged as well as the NYT in a huff about "TERF island" Grin

"But we’re not owned by private equity, we don’t have to chase profits and our values are that the site is unfiltered – we don’t do that Facebook algorithm thing where you see what you’re interested in. Anything you see is a true and fair discussion. If an opinion is legal we will host it, because that’s the only way of understanding the other side’s point of view."

Boiledbeetle · 07/01/2023 09:14

Helleofabore · 07/01/2023 09:08

So is this today’s bat signal?

@Helleofabore morning sweetie. You ready. Well rested. Fingers cracked. Foot massages started!

What do you mean you'rd off out for the day????...But it's raining.

HerringBoneBlanket · 07/01/2023 09:13

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/01/2023 08:40

I'll judge Justine on what she's done, ie provided a space to enable debate to take place leading to valuable spin-offs from that, rather than finding fault in her words. Especially since those words will have been carefully chosen to limit the amount of attacks they'll inevitably attract

This. But LOL at the Telegraph thinking "cis" means heterosexual.

But also, what does heterosexual mean again?

Because a TW who defines themselves as a lesbian would be heterosexual in many other people's books.....this is where deciding definitions that other people don't agree with just falls down. Nothing has any shared meaning.

Helleofabore · 07/01/2023 09:08

So is this today’s bat signal?

MrsOvertonsWindow · 07/01/2023 09:07

Another agreeing with nauticant's post. We can only imagine the extreme levels of threats and bullying that MNHQ are in receipt of and the extent that it's affected what is after all, a commercial organisation. I've no doubt their lawyers are kept busy.
And we shouldn't forget that this board is a small part of a massive site that offers women so many resources and points of help.
All credit to her.

Libre2 · 07/01/2023 09:06

Datun · 07/01/2023 09:03

Yes me too! We're of one mind this morning Eresh

Indeed - I am one of those ordinary women. Without MN I would totally ill-informed and sleep walking into the nightmare situation. I am grateful.

Boiledbeetle · 07/01/2023 09:04

nauticant · 07/01/2023 08:34

I'll judge Justine on what she's done, ie provided a space to enable debate to take place leading to valuable spin-offs from that, rather than finding fault in her words. Especially since those words will have been carefully chosen to limit the amount of attacks they'll inevitably attract.

Totally this. She could shut this down completely. delete more posts, bow to the probably very vocal minority trying to get her to do that.

But she keeps it open. A lot more now gets to stand than it did just 12 months ago.

It seemed an article designed to say her piece yet not piss any group off too much.

And considering the other side isn't happy with anything but 100% capitulation I'm not sure, as annoying as the restrictions can be, what else she can say /do on certain areas. She's trying to keep everyone happy.

So let's just be happy that mumsnet allow us the most precious of things these days a space to say what we actually think. Woman equals adult human female and TWAM.

RaininginDarling · 07/01/2023 09:03

LaChatte · 07/01/2023 08:58

I disagree about it being a minority who feel very very strongly about it. It's a minority who are active in the discussion. Lots of us follow the board without participating, doesn't mean we don't feel strongly about it too.

Agree

Datun · 07/01/2023 09:03

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/01/2023 08:55

Without Mumsnet, the UK would have self ID, or be well on the way to. There are some amazing feminists out there fighting the good fight on Twitter and organising things like WP. But Mumsnet is what got those viewpoints in front of ordinary women, it’s why English politicians especially sat up and took notice, and it’s why the sensible journalists now write on this issue. Mumsnet was the wedge. Let’s give Justine that I think.

I agree with this.

Yes me too! We're of one mind this morning Eresh

Datun · 07/01/2023 09:01

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/01/2023 08:51

Yes. I've never thought Justine fully grasps the issues. Odd really, given her unique position.

But, if that's so, she's gone above and beyond to keep the dialogue going.

I was just about to say exactly this! She's never really understood what any of it is about, but I admire her steely resolve not to censor it.

Yes. And that's probably why she gets the dual reaction of profuse thanks for the platform and despair at not seeming to support it.

The reason it so odd is a cg position is founded largely on logic and rationality. You may not care but the arguments are fairly irrefutable. Judging by that article, I honestly don't think she reads them.

And she couldn't possibly have signed it off, with the totally wrong, and horribly misleading, definition of 'cis'. Plus its use is actually banned on her own site as a slur - does she even know that? And if she does why insult her members by using it!

Doesnt make sense.

LaChatte · 07/01/2023 08:58

I disagree about it being a minority who feel very very strongly about it. It's a minority who are active in the discussion. Lots of us follow the board without participating, doesn't mean we don't feel strongly about it too.