Former TRA’s what made you change your mind?

That’s such a good point, women aren’t just temporarily losing things, but experiences and rights that are irreplaceable. Some women will regroup and find places like these but others will never know what they lost to begin with.

I was never TRA but had a live and let live, what harm can it do kind of attitude and then a family member transitioned. He was a father of 4 and I saw what that did to his wife and kids. And I lurked here and started reading a bit here and there. I became aware of the issues in sport and work and awards being given to trans women instead of actual women and the situation in female prisons and the more I learned became more and more horrified. Now I'm fully GC and once you see it you can't unsee it.

@YouAreNotBatman
Your post was not addressed to me but can I point out that one way to support people living with a DSD/VSD is not to force the othering and old-fashioned label "intersex" on them.

I would also add that Intersex people ( of who there are vanishingly few, not that I am dismissing any struggles they have) have repeatedly asked to be left out of these debates.

This is a really interesting thread, @PissedOffAmericanWoman. I've never been TWAW, but I am trying to peak friends, so the stories on here are useful.

The LGB movement was started to fight for equality for same sex attracted people.

The additions to the LGB string do not fall under this category and are connected to ideas around gender and/or kink.

The muddying of the waters around what is being fought for when - as far as I'm concerned- the gender and kink brigade should have a separate lobby is I think what @PissedOffAmericanWoman is talking about.

I was always very pro trans rights as a teenager (but I feel like this was when there was a far lower % of trans people iyswim, before the big explosion).

For me the turning point was in 2019 reading about that gross Canadian guy suing a bunch of female beauticians who do female waxing for refusing to wax his ballsack. Jessica Yaniv. I was like “wtf, what about the woman’s right not to do that.” When I looked on Twitter and all the support was for Yaniv I was astounded. Some of the women didn’t take male clients for religious reasons. But still it was seen as transphobic.

I remember chatting with my husband - why are trans rights more important than the rights of women and girls? We talked about swimming pool changing rooms. How if male bodied people are allowed in, then some women (eg Muslim women and girls) simply wouldn’t be able to go swimming or take their children swimming anymore. How is that fair? I wouldn’t feel comfortable either. A woman’s changing room is a safe space. I have daughters so I was very stuck on this point.

I still am stuck on this point and I am yet to read a convincing argument for why pre-transition trans women should be allowed in women’s spaces in this way. Same for shop changing rooms, women and girls sports, brownie camps, girls schools, women’s shelters, rape crisis centres etc etc.

I also had an experience in uni when some friends and I simply stopped going to Feminist Society because a trans woman joined and made it ALL about trans. There were also one or two woke cis men on the trans woman’s side. Loved lecturing the women about inclusivity. The annual reading of Vagina Monologues was cancelled. We weren’t allowed to talk about menstrual/female health issues. We weren’t allowed to talk about ANYTHING without the focus being “oh trans women have it worse.” There were many grumblings of “maybe they should have their own separate society then” but no one said anything, and it didn’t peak me. Years later I can see how this was another example of women’s spaces being invaded. I’ll never again get another opportunity like a uni FemSoc to gather with likeminded women. Now wish I could go back in time and give those men a piece of my mind!

@ItWasDobbinAtTheMareAndSpare

"For the record, mother of a boy here and I certainly have concerns! This affects us all.*"
*
Great to hear. Of course my anecdata isn't comprehensive, but seems to be a noted phenomena among some mothers. Will be interesting as the thread goes along to see if it's something observed by other posters.

The long LGBTQIA+ acronym is a perfect example of the lack of boundaries to their own detriment.

What does this mean @PissedOffAmericanWoman ?

You don’t support intersex, asexuals and aromantic people?

Not all mothers of boys obv but I have also come across quite strong internalised misogyny in women I thought were like minded who are mothers of boys only sorry to say. Emphasising “gender” differences (boys will be boys girls are moody and bitchy). Rape myths “she asked for it” very concerned about false rape allegations , default is that are women lying. This is an extension of it.

For the record, mother of a boy here and I certainly have concerns! This affects us all.

Great thread.

@NoShitHemlock

Funny you say that about your sisters because I have had a very similar response from the friends I have who are mothers to just boys. Friends who have girls ( or girls and boys) seem much more alive to the threats girls face ( based on conversations I have had with them).

My 'mothers of boys' friends are very much in the TWAW camp ( and two of them are health care professionals so I find their stance quite baffling when they deal day in day out with the realities of sexed bodies).

I can only assume their own internalised misogyny from putting their male relatives first in absolutely every situation has hardwired their brains, as the very idea that there should be any type of barrier to their sons doing exactly what they want all the time is anathema. I have gently tried to suggest this is the case and have been laughed out of the room. As you say, I must just "hate men".

If only it were that normal to believe women were able to do whatever they wanted!

Never a TRA but certainly felt good, worthy and accepting when parroting “TWAW!”

I am sporty so it was the Olympic regulations around trans women competing against women which made me wake up. So ludicrous that I laughed and couldn’t believe it was true. Peaked in about one minute.

@EnglishBloodIrishHeart

Thank you for such an interesting and thoughtful post. I wish you well and hope you continue to feel comfortable and at one with your identity.

I wasn’t a full on activist but very much supported trans rights and be kind until I saw the expanding stonewall umbrella and they weren’t just talking about dysphoric transsexuals of whom I know many. When the cross dressers and fetishists were being allowed to force us to call them women and allowed to access single sex spaces (whether by law or by well meaning organisations not quite getting the law). Then the more I saw and read the more I realised this was nothing to do with body or gender dysphoria and everything to do with control of women.

@RaininginDarling My honest view is that this is where the biggest issue lies.

I grew up in the 90s where toy stores had a bright pink aisle of ‘girls’ toys and a blue/darker packaged aisle of ‘boys’ toys.
i was in to football, cars and action man, hated dolls and barbies. I wore jeans and trainers and hoodies and fought every attempt to get me in to anything femanine.

i have very stereotypical parents who I was constantly at war with other clothing and toys and why I couldn’t run around with all the boys.

But I was also going through a lot of trauma, bullying and some SA.

When I found the definition of trans, I thought all of my feelings had been answered.

BUT although on the whole I’m happier now than I was then, and I don’t regret my choices
As I’ve grown older I realise that my transition was a response to those issues.
Had I had parents who allowed me to be me and didn’t equate interests or clothing with gender I feel I may well have been able to work through my issues in therapy and not transitioned.

Nowadays it seems someone ku has to show the slightest hint of being GNC and they’re given hormone blockers and told they are trans, or NB. It’s frightening, because it feeds back in to dangerous stereotypes.

I think a high proportion of those now transitioning are neurodiverse, disabled, have experiences abuse of some kind and they’re turning to transition as the solution to their problems, as a way to fit in etc

i think JKR explained it perfectly in her essay

Then jkr, dodgy Green Party safeguarding, Labour expelling feminist women, back boneless Keir, then Kira bell, maya and other recent court cases highlighting the strangeness that is stonewall.

I hadn't ever really come across any transwomen or transmen. I thought drag was funny and men who wore dresses were so brave. It didn't affect me - no bloke dressed as a woman had ever attempted to invade my space and I never felt threatened in a mixed sex toilet (although I got in and out as quickly as I could). I was a fucking idiot.

DD (who hadn't yet been diagnosed with ASD and ADHD) was about 12 or 13 and had just told me that she thought she liked girls instead of boys. I was so pleased that she knew she could tell me and I just wanted to see if there was anything I help her with on the internet (resources for young teenagers etc). I came across an article that has already been mentioned upthread about transwomen identifying as lesbians and insisting that actual lesbians should sleep with them and I was horrified. I read a bit more and had a chat with a woman who is a lesbian that I am friends with and told her about the article. Her response was that I should "get of the bloody internet".

But I didn't. I kept reading. I was already a member of Mumsnet but now I started taking more notice of the FWR threads and everything that was happening regards safeguarding. The transwomen in womens sports. Then Girl Guiding. And then and then and then - the list just kept growing. By now I was firmly in GC territory and willing to talk to just about anyone who would listen.

And then I spoke to my sisters. All 3 of them have boys (so not the same worries as having a female child), none of them have ever known anyone who is trans. All of them are firmly TWAW. I was dumbfounded. Did they not realise the possible implications for girls? Did they not care? Apparently I just "hate men" and I should let people get on with their own lives. Well fuck that for a game of marbles.

And now we fall out regularly because all I see is misogyny. All I see are risks to my autistic daughter (who for about 5 minutes decided she wanted to be a boy because she didnt feel like a girl - it didn't last long as she is fairly sensible). And I can't unsee it. I can't go back to "live and let live" because I worry for her all the time. She is choosing her university options soon and wants to live away from home so I am trying to prepare her as best I can (how to use a washing machine, how to budget etc etc) but how can I prepare her for the handmaids? All she wants to do is be kind to people and make friends. And all I can see is the trans cult coming for her because she is an easy target.

Sorry - this was a full info dump. I don't usually post on these boards because I don't often feel I have much to say that someone much more eloquent can say. I just want anyone who is fence sitting (and manages to wade through this!) to know that just because it doesn't affect you directly it doesn't mean it won't affect those who you know and love.

i was very pro, then initially shocked about the incident at speakers corner. Then read about individual acts of violence and hateful speech towards females, which only served to highlight the need for single sex spaces. One day it dawned on me that all the trans people I knew were autistic and vulnerable, struggling to fit in. I felt compassionate towards individuals but safeguarding concerns weighed heavily. Tavistock clinic set off alarm bells, limited number of appointments and then prescribed life changing drugs, whilst failing to assess neurodivergence, offering long term counselling or measuring outcomes. The stream of staff leaving Tavistock said it all.

@EnglishBloodIrishHeart I have nothing to say as the only way to express my feelings to your comment is to share this meme.

Thanks for sharing your experience @EnglishBloodIrishHeart - as already said, you sound very grounded and thoughtful. One of the things I find most troubling is the expectation for gnc women to transition now, and I wondered what you felt about that.

Thank you for your comment, EnglishBloodIrishHeart, you sound very down to earth and I wish you well.

I can definitely agree with this shift:

I saw more people making their transgender identity their WHOLE identity.

It went from helpful videos online from other trans people talking about their experiences of hormones or surgery etc

To videos of people relating every aspect of their life to being trans

i come from a very different perspective

But I hope you don’t mind me sharing.

It’ll be a long read, but I hope it may be of interest to some of you.

I myself am trans (female to male), although I don’t feel the need to ‘identify’ as trans. It’s something I had to go through to get to where I am, it’s not who I am.

So, naturally, initially I advocated for ‘my’ community and felt very strongly that trans women were women and trans men were men, because I wanted to be excepted in my acquired gender so it felt hypocritical to not believe the same of others.

But this was 2007, and the vast majority of trans people back then were older people who had lived vast amounts of their life in their birth gender, had often married, had kids etc and had a much fuller understanding of the biological differences between the sexes. Most just wanted to live a quiet comfortable life in their preferred gender, and if they had surgery at all they did so quietly, and fully understood that it was a cosmetic procedure and that there are some things you simply cannot recreate.

I was very young.

I was rejected by my family and a lot of friends, some because they disagreed with my choices (and they WERE choices)

Others because they simply didn’t know anything about trans people and in some cases didn’t know or believe transition possible.

That was their view, and as hurt as I was, I just moved on with living my life.

i ‘passed’ very well,

I turned to the trans community for support, and friendship. But for the most part, was rejected,

Others didn’t like that I passed more than they did

or that I was much younger and had much more of my life ahead of me

That I was likely young and fit enough for surgery, when they weren’t.

Over the next few years I just got on with my life, and perused hormones and surgery. I lived as a male and only felt the need to tell people I was trans if they medically needed to know, or I was entering in to a close relationship/friendship with someone.

Some accepted me, others didn’t and that was that.

I no longer felt comfortable using female facilities, I looked too male, and in any case didn’t feel I belonged.

So I used the male or disabled facilities (this was easier to do because I am also disabled)

If I used any male facilities I went in, did my business and left.

In a few places, like college. I was told some of the make staff didn’t feel comfortable with the idea of me using male facilities but I was welcome to use the disabled or female ones.

I accepted that.

If I joined any ‘male’ groups I let them know I was trans and they either permitted me or they didn’t.

Then I started to notice a shift within the trans community.

I saw more people making their transgender identity their WHOLE identity.

It went from helpful videos online from other trans people talking about their experiences of hormones or surgery etc

To videos of people relating every aspect of their life to being trans

Asking the public to fund surgery because they didn’t want to wait or pay themselves. (I understand the waiting lists are years long now but they weren’t at the time)

I saw people claiming all of the psychological assessments weren’t necessary

Saying parents must accept their 5 year old saying they were trans

That schools must accept and accommodate

That young boys should be allowed to changed in the girls changing rooms at school or the local leisure centre

I saw a demand to be allowed everywhere

To be allowed in to the facilities that matched birth sex
But also in to facilities that matched the acquired genders

I saw a change from people just trying to be viewed as whichever gender, by wearing normal clothing, makeup etc

To flaunting and wearing provocative clothing and calling everyone transphobic if they said it wasn’t appropriate.

I saw a demand of ‘equality’ that wasn’t asking for equality

It was acting for special treatment

I saw women’s rights being eroded in the name of equality

Of human rights
Of inclusivity.

And all the while, I saw trans people EXCLUDING others. Saying they only felt safe in trans spaces

Only felt comfortable around trans friends

Yet screaming transphobia if a non trans person said they didn’t feel comfortable around them.

I saw the introduction of who knows how many new pronouns and genders and sexualities

I saw trans women buying sanitary products for absolutely no reason other than to ‘look the part’

Trans women demanding to be acknowledged
as legal mothers
And as some of you have said, taking offence when actual mothers talk about being child/pregnancy/breastfeeding because it’s ‘insensitive’

I will never produce semen, I will never ‘father’ a child. I don’t see how that makes it insensitive for male friends to talk about their children or sex lives because I recognise that the world does not revolve around my choices.

I would still very much like to advocate for trans people like myself, who just want to feel comfortable in their own skin.

But sadly, our voices have been drowned out by loud voices screaming inclusion whilst they continue to exclude anyone who doesn’t share their view.