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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Upsetting story from Glinner re. misgendering by a disabled woman

40 replies

HootyMcboob76 · 06/01/2023 16:06

As a follower of Glinner, his recent email details a TW angry at a woman with Down Syndrome who is "misgendering" them. I'm not sure this link will work

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The comments left by the TW supporters are just awful.
I really feel for people who cannot play along with this nonsense, be they disabled for whatever reason or autistic, on the spectrum etc.
They see the reality before their eyes and are being coerced and bullied into denying it.

Sickening.

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NitroNine · 13/01/2023 13:14

Not having discrete legislation is certainly an issue. A single advisory body could be made to work - but it would need to be large, with multiple departments to specialise & advise on each area for the overarching body - like how you have different departments within the Home Office: asylum & immigration is very different from the security services so they’re totally separate departments but still both HO. Or maybe French & Chinese both being in the MFL department at a school?

Anyway, yes, should this lady need it, she has a hefty body of law on her side; & depending on where in the US it happened, HR may also not be tripping over themselves to make loos mixed-sex. I do so hope the ableist at the centre of this is about to encounter the reality of other people - even, shock horror, disabled women! - having rights! Mandatory disability rights training would seem to be in order really 🤷‍♀️

EasterIsland · 12/01/2023 14:32

That is very reassuring @NitroNine As you and other posters say, it sounds like it's actually stronger than the UK EA.

I remember when there were discussions around the merging of various equalities bodies into the EHRC - the concerns were that by putting them all together, the specific interests, concerns, ad expertise for, say, women, or race, would be lost. Very prescient, it seems.

NitroNine · 11/01/2023 17:35

That’s ok @EasterIsland - I don’t expect people to be hanging on my every word, it was just much easier to quote my post than look up the links again!

The ADA has what you might call a high level of brand recognition, I suppose? It was passed in 1990 & there’s been much more rigorous enforcement of ADA compliance than DDA/EA [for disabilities] compliance. You can even report a [potential] breach online; & can report on behalf of a friend/family member/colleague (etc) too. So if the lady in question doesn’t fully understand her ADA rights, I’m sure she’ll have someone ready to advocate for her. As @Delphinium20 says, the ADA is well-tested legislation that has teeth: should it reach the point of litigation rather than a reminder of rights someone might get a nasty shock - disabled people are people too 😱

Delphinium20 · 10/01/2023 19:04

While I wouldn't want the woman to have to go through the legal system, this would be a very good test case for competing rights: gender identity vs. disability rights.

Not only does the ADA have teeth, it has historical legal precedent applied in many ways. Gender identity does not. I'd like to see this as a matchup in the courts.

EasterIsland · 10/01/2023 15:47

Oh apologies @NitroNine - I was skimming the thread and missed your post.

Thank you so much for the information. And let's hope that the woman so vilely abused by that transwoman has some good people around her to support her and who know about the ADA.

NitroNine · 10/01/2023 13:04

NitroNine · 07/01/2023 06:31

From the language used I think they’re in the US @ScrollingLeaves; & as the commenters suggest, companies will bend over backwards for trans employees. (Unless it suits them to argue that trans people are at risk of losing their jobs just for being trans [& that is why a disproportionate number of TW “do sex work”] of course.)

The ADA, of course, guarantees the lady who works as a courtesy clerk, protections under the law. No legal rights for women as a sex class in the US though.

Depending on where in the US they are, the individual complaining may not legally be allowed to use the women’s toilets. OSHA, being subject to institutional capture, merrily slides round that fact; cheerily bringing up the shameful misappropriation of Title IX by the trans lobby.

That disingenuous wail of “what can I dooooooo?” is frankly shameful. How “lucky” this individual has a supply of people ready & willing to support their ableism; & tell them that a perfectly reasonable response is to destroy the life of a woman who actually will (despite the ADA) struggle to find alternative employment. Ugh.

Imagine repeatedly & deliberately causing a woman with a developmental disability (& statistically, quite likely cardiac issues) such acute distress. The level of self-absorption required for such selfishness is staggering even to contemplate.

@EasterIsland they have the ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act) - I linked an explanation of the employment provisions in post quoted here.

The ADA is in many ways superior to the EA in the same way the DDA was better - disabled people need & deserve discrete equalities legislation not to be bundled into a mishmash of concerns like the EA.

howmanybicycles · 09/01/2023 19:09

what is Valerie actually upset about? That Valerie can't make the woman with Down Syndrome comply with Valerie's version of progress or that Valerie can't make people believe them to be female?

bellinisurge · 09/01/2023 17:15

@Ameanstreakamilewide I agree. AGPs are mentally ill and, given that society is applauding and enabling them, they are unlikely to reflect on the harm they cause. Those that applaud and enable them should spend the rest of their lives haunted by what they are promoting and the harm it causes to the actually vulnerable

Mamette · 09/01/2023 16:27

HootyMcboob76 · 09/01/2023 16:00

They are both employees at the grocery store.

Sorry, I completely missed that.

HootyMcboob76 · 09/01/2023 16:00

Mamette · 09/01/2023 14:48

How long is the grocery shopping that it necessitates a loo break?

Not the point I know

They are both employees at the grocery store.

OP posts:
Mamette · 09/01/2023 14:48

How long is the grocery shopping that it necessitates a loo break?

Not the point I know

Ameanstreakamilewide · 09/01/2023 14:37

bellinisurge · 09/01/2023 13:48

Proper Maoist shit. I hope the wanker who said this is haunted by what they have become.

That would require some introspection and some good old fashioned giving-a-single fuck-about-someone-else.

AGPs are so far down the rabbit hole of their degeneracy, other humans don't even register.

nilsmousehammer · 09/01/2023 14:18

And to head off the inevitable pleading of 'but it's only one bad apple', I don't care.

I do not care.

Women should not have to deal with this from males in women's spaces. At all. Ever. Male people need to have their own solutions, and this is what comes of the fundamentally appalling idea that female humans are therapeutic resources for males.

nilsmousehammer · 09/01/2023 14:15

Quite.

A male demanding kindness and inclusiveness with all the many severe issues this presents to females, has used access to a female space to refuse to be inclusive or kind to a disabled woman and to punish her for being disabled in a way that failed to gratify the male person's ego.

We don't need the Equality Act we need the bloody Freedom Programme. This is an abusive relationship and LTB is the tried and tested solution for women.

RainbowZebraWarrior · 09/01/2023 14:11

As a disabled, Autistic woman this is just hideous to read about. My late sister had Downs Syndrome, too which makes it just a little bit too close to home and a little bit more heartbreaking.

I do not like and do not recognise this apparent 'Brave new world' we live in.

ApocalipstickNow · 09/01/2023 13:55

It’s almost as if there’s a whole bunch of bully hanger ons who have been waiting for an opportunity to be racist, ableist, misogynistic, homophobic, anti different faiths etc and have gleefully leaped onto social media to give air to their views h the second something came along that would provide them with cover.

sorry, not almost, exactly.

bellinisurge · 09/01/2023 13:48

Proper Maoist shit. I hope the wanker who said this is haunted by what they have become.

EasterIsland · 09/01/2023 12:53

Good Lord! The ablesim and entitlement are disgusting.

And I fear that the woman with Downs Syndrome will be sacked, because I don't think the US has the equivalent of our Equalities Act.

Florissant · 08/01/2023 12:09

That poor woman. Glinner's article is just another illustration of how "Be kind" works in one direction only.

IcakethereforeIam · 08/01/2023 11:53

I was thinking about this last night. If one of my friends came out with something like this, I would support them (they're my friend) but I wouldn't support their position. If I were friends with the tw, I might agree with them using the ladies Confused, but I'd encourage a bit of empathy around their colleague. I wouldn't cheerlead them on this nasty path. What true friend would?

ScrollingLeaves · 08/01/2023 09:21

nilsmousehammer · Today 08:12
It is important every single time you have to mention the women and girls harmed and excluded in women's spaces to permit men freedom of self expression that you cover all the groups. Often the only one mentioned is women of faith/other cultures, which immediately gets the racist/belief intolerant and stone hearted compassionless snarl of 'women should not follow that faith because it is incompatible with her servicing my needs and should abandon belief, family, culture, friends on the spot' (and join my faith of atheism).

Spot the conversion therapy.

It includes Disabled women and girls. Including this poor woman. Including women with Autism. (Many Autistic MNetters have spoken on this) women with dementia, women who cannot lie and nurture the feelings of a man above their own perceptions and communication.

And you see the immediate ableist, stone hearted, compassionless and hatefilled snarl towards them too.

There is nothing 'kind' about this kind of wholly unacceptable, prejudiced and cruel behaviour to others while demanding (frequently with threats and swearing) that extreme end standards and extreme high efforts of kindness, inclusive beliefs and tolerance are served to those exhibiting it.

Spot the male violence guys. Spot the abusive behaviour. It's less equality act than Lundy Bancroft's area of expertise. It has no place in women's spaces and the first duty of women's spaces are to be accessible to all women.

Then we can worry about what men may like as additional variant spaces for their inclusion needs in addition.

Thank you, you have put that so well.

nilsmousehammer · 08/01/2023 08:12

It is important every single time you have to mention the women and girls harmed and excluded in women's spaces to permit men freedom of self expression that you cover all the groups. Often the only one mentioned is women of faith/other cultures, which immediately gets the racist/belief intolerant and stone hearted compassionless snarl of 'women should not follow that faith because it is incompatible with her servicing my needs and should abandon belief, family, culture, friends on the spot' (and join my faith of atheism).

Spot the conversion therapy.

It includes Disabled women and girls. Including this poor woman. Including women with Autism. (Many Autistic MNetters have spoken on this) women with dementia, women who cannot lie and nurture the feelings of a man above their own perceptions and communication.

And you see the immediate ableist, stone hearted, compassionless and hatefilled snarl towards them too.

There is nothing 'kind' about this kind of wholly unacceptable, prejudiced and cruel behaviour to others while demanding (frequently with threats and swearing) that extreme end standards and extreme high efforts of kindness, inclusive beliefs and tolerance are served to those exhibiting it.

Spot the male violence guys. Spot the abusive behaviour. It's less equality act than Lundy Bancroft's area of expertise. It has no place in women's spaces and the first duty of women's spaces are to be accessible to all women.

Then we can worry about what men may like as additional variant spaces for their inclusion needs in addition.

ApocalipstickNow · 08/01/2023 07:46

Another thing I have learned since so much of this became more public is not only are people genuinely not interested in women or children’s rights or lives but many, many people still despise people with disabilities simply because they have disabilities.

NitroNine · 08/01/2023 01:56

The lady’s age isn’t mentioned, but it’s quite possible that she did not receive the SALT & audiology input she required when she was younger. Even if her parents had insurance they may not have covered what was required; & if they changed insurers, or were previously uninsured & got insurance after her birth, it’s possible their daughter would’ve been denied coverage for her “pre-existing condition”. Dental care is often a separate plan & frequently very expensive. It is possible that the lady may thus not have had braces - or, alternatively, if she did have them, she had them at the “usual” time, which harms language development in children with Down’s Syndrome.

The lady’s speech being indistinct has no reflection on her ability to correctly sex other members of her species; nor, clearly, to understand rules about how one behaves in public. People with intellectual disabilities are seven times more likely to be sexually assaulted than people who are not disabled, so this woman has, rightly, been taught male people are not allowed into the women’s toilets. It’s a rule.

The male complainant has spent no time trying to get to know the woman so the male complainant does not understand her speech. I have no doubt but that she has colleagues & even customers who do understand her, even if it has taken time & it is with difficulty. No decent person describes the speech of another as “grunts” like this - it’s a deliberate attempt to dehumanise a disabled woman.

By their own logic, all those people advocating for reporting the woman [& getting her fired] are Nazis. Who did the Nazis kill first? Who did they justify the killing of in children’s textbooks? Their own rules & rhetoric make the lot of them Nazis jackbooting all over the rights of the disabled - more specifically, disabled women - but never will they see that. Because Reasons.

Women with T21 are less likely to have an IQ under 20 & more likely to have one higher than 70. Most people with Down’s Syndrome have only a mild-moderate cognitive delay; & while some are more severely impacted, some are of average intelligence. Conflating communication difficulties with intelligence is an error that causes harm to an already disadvantaged population.

”Tell me I’m not punching down by lashing out at a disabled woman I am depicting as seriously cognitively delayed & barely able to communicate with others!” cries the trans woman seeking to colonise a female space. “Of course you’re not! She is an evil transphobe & must be destroyed! You are stunning & this is brave.” chorus the enablers obligingly, obediently - or simply in exchange for similar reassurance. They are “the right side of history” & their tanks will roll over any & all opposition to the colonisation of womanhood while mere females are to stand back and “enjoy your erasure”.

But sadly for them: Vive la Resistance! In all its many & varied forms, including a courtesy clerk with Down’s Syndrome who isn’t afraid to tell a male individual that the ladies’ loos are for female people.

ZestFest · 07/01/2023 14:01

I saw this on Twitter and could have wept. Just awful.

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