Model response to a dilemma for women in the left-right storm (really?)

Completely disagree. If the leaders of the Dem tribe change their mind, these people will too. It's why they are so entrenched...they think they are on the right side because of their tribe. If the tribe changes course, they will too.

But the leaders are not going to change their minds because they are following the people. Look at Keir Starmer over here. - can't talk about women without squirming. Neither Democrats nor Labour leaders are brave enough.

It might happen but you/we will be waiting a jolly long time.

Gov. Kristi Noem is no feminist. She's banning abortion access.

Delph, what do you think, other than a celeb voice, will swing it? Or just as you say, when the damaged children and the suing gets too much?

Is there any hope that the changes in Sweden and the U.K. will filter through?

Im heartened by the latest links Helle has posted on break it down for me thread (thank you Hellebore) will academia / medical ethics wake up?

There must be more like Suzanne Forbes-Vierling; how does she not get cancelled?

A second q to the thread, sorry if I've missed it, do the documentary makers want to be platformed by anyone? I know they've done private zoom q and a with anyone who knew about it and wanted to join.

If the left is so rigid and narrow-minded, then they aren't going to be reached via leftist platforms either. They already think TW are a "sacred caste" so any kind of criticism will be interpreted as right wing and therefore not heard. So what's the point of limiting the reach of your message and stopping other women from hearing it?

Completely disagree. If the leaders of the Dem tribe change their mind, these people will too. It's why they are so entrenched...they think they are on the right side because of their tribe. If the tribe changes course, they will too.

You trying to shoehorn in other activists, some Actually fighting for women’s rights and others not at all, is you trying to make out there are more feminists fighting pro-women stances than there is.

on Tucker Carlson is the ending to that sentence.

There is that polarisation again. You are the one pushing that she must believe x because she has associated with y.

I have never once said she was forced to do anything. Please cut and paste where I have.

I have suggested that she may have different views than what you are forcing on her through having not one shred of evidence at all.

This is an example of ‘guilt by association’. As is attributing the exact same motivation to sexist males as you have to feminists.

And you are trying to steel man your weak argument through using a wider description than is actually relevant. Just like when you called me a racist because I ignored your attempts to dismiss what happened to the women in Oakland. This is you doing this again.

The film is about feminism and mostly feminists except Simon Edge. Who, by the way is probably a sound example of an activist who prioritises sex over gender when it matters particularly for females who have unique needs due their body, who is not a feminist.

You trying to shoehorn in other activists, some Actually fighting for women’s rights and others not at all, is you trying to make out there are more feminists fighting pro-women stances than there is.

And we are on MN. Fuck! If you want to defence your ‘paper’ I would suggest that you at the very least get your definitions right and only ascribe the correct motivations to the groups motivated by it.

Feminist voices supporting sex over gender where it matters is the only direct comparison for a film by feminists with all feminist voices bar one.

Yes. That middle ground or unaligned group could be as high as half the country, considering that half the country does not vote. But that is itself the problem because we primarily only get entrenched tribe members showing up to the polls.

To win, the GOP and the Dems each need to reach a minority of independent, sway-able voters who they believe will show up to the polls. Some topics, like getting rid of Trump and abortion makes otherwise lackadaisical people show up and vote. At some point, enough parents w/ damaged children will swing the polls, but i don't see it widespread yet. One example of the Dems losing as a result of their stupid gender woo was in VA. When the Virginia GOP realized they could use the trans issue as a possible swing voter switch, they jumped in, appropriated feminist arguments, distanced themselves from Trump and took up the anti-academic distress over leveling math classes in public schools, and narrowly won the Virginia governor's election. But did the Dems learn this lesson? Not sure.

Most Dem voters will continue to vote Dem despite what they personally feel if asked about the GC issues. I am a perfect example of this - When forced between 2 choices, I vote for Dems because abortion, gun control, getting rid of Trump, and climate change were more important to me than gender identity.

To change Dem policy stances on Gender Identity, we need a sea change, an influencer on the left who isn't hated (I suspect Hillary Clinton is a Terf, she's too damn smart not to be one) but she's hated by so many Dems and progressives that her voice would backfire.

We need a beloved cultural voice, like you have JKRowling. Like Michelle Obama or Oprah.

Sadly, the women who'd listen to Elizabeth Warren, Kamala Harris or Gloria Steinem are the women who should hear this film but they do not watch TC. The three feminists I mentioned have been heartbreakingly disappointing on this topic. Steinem stood up to NY Dem Governor on surrogacy, but she won't stand up to Biden on gender woo.

Martina Navartilova, a lesbian and a Democrat, has spoken up but it's not gained her any friends. She's been roundly ignored.

Hey wims, any of you deny that some activists who want to prioritise sex over gender when sex is important are not feminists???

And some not even female??

No??

What about knowing the difference between a male who has sexist motives for keeping the definition of woman as adult human female?

I think we all know who they are right???

did not know that you didn’t know that Tucker Carlson doesn’t debate GC activists, he is always in 100% agreement with them…so GC views are not a counterpoint at all on his shows.

Tucker Carlson, he's all about boys being able to cry and wear princess dresses, couples sharing housework and child care responsibility 50/50, and fighting the barriers lead to such high attrition rates for women in STEM careers

oh wait a minute, he isn't

BECAUSE HE ISN'T GENDER CRITICAL

No. I am pointing out that more feminist voices are needed on Tucker Carlson.

FFS. If you cannot argue your point coherently and discuss like for like, then your argument is as weak as.

someone disagreeing with you = bullying?

I think we may have found something else you don't understand

I think going to do something else is probably for the best

but if you can find an article where your chum jason critiques gender, do come back (because then he'd be gender critical)

And who is bullying you?

We are asking for you to clarify what you mean. Are you not prepared to because ??? Why??! You have just realised that you are making false accusations against people who don’t agree with you?

did not know that you didn’t know that Tucker Carlson doesn’t debate GC activists, he is always in 100% agreement with them…so GC views are not a counterpoint at all on his shows.

🤦🏻‍♀️😂

I'm not saying TC is the counterpoint. I am saying women's right GC view are the counterpoint to all the other "less palatable" views. I agree with Hellofabore - more feminists need to go on the show.

You, by cherry picking are excluding many GC activists who are not feminists.

You have a nice night too.

Right, I’m done here. Those views are plainly GC and I can only conclude you are simply getting off on bullying me by pretending they are not.

Have a nice night v

No. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt here.

Please explain this statement.

“Equally, you are grossly mistaken if you think all GC activists are also feminists. That’s the problem. And I’m surprised you are refusing to admit this fact.”

Who is denying this? Please list which posters are doing this?

GC feminists. No, someone else is pretending “equality of opportunity” is the #1 campaign issue for GC feminists. It’s not.

Yes

those views aren’t gender critical

those guys love gender

they don’t critique it

would an interpretive dance help you understand?

The words really are very simple

No, rather you are ignoring all the evidence demonstrating what she believes by her actions to insist on some batshit narrative that she is being forced to do the opposite of what she believes in.

And yes you are cherry picking by applying filters on everyone GC who has been on TC. It is academically dishonest and wouldn’t pass journalistic ethics much less any peer review.

“Im sorry but the vast majority of GC feminists are not campaigning for “equality of opportunity” they are campaigning for the definition of woman and single sex spaces as I listed above.”

Really?? Show us how feminists are not fighting for equality of opportunity?

Or are you trying to say that equality of opportunity is somehow tied to single sex spaces ?

Thanks for telling us all what we believe.

How fabulous!!

I believe you are forgetting that feminists who support prioritisation of sex over gender understand that we are oppressed due to our bodies and our bodies differences. No need to have any belief in stereotypes at all.

The difference with sexist men is that they are those doing the oppressing. And often support biological essentialism and all the gender stereotypes they can find.

A rather key difference…. The feminism side of it.

@BernardBlacksMolluscs
GC feminists don't want women to be defined on the basis of sexist stereotypes

I know. I didn’t say that. Not sure why you are pretending I did.

Im sorry but the vast majority of GC feminists are not campaigning for “equality of opportunity” they are campaigning for the definition of woman and single sex spaces as I listed above.

Equally, you are grossly mistaken if you think all GC activists are also feminists. That’s the problem. And I’m surprised you are refusing to admit this fact.

Here is another video where he expresses his GC views:

Carlson, who said transgender people “seem to be particularly hostile to Christianity,” asked Whitlock: “What do you think that’s about?”

The radio journalist responded by saying: “Whatever desire you have. If you want to marry a cat. If you think you were born a biological man but you’re really a woman. If you think you’re a dog, whatever your desire, they want to normalise. It’s a do-what-thou-wilt.”

“It’s a satanic philosophy,” Whitlock claimed. “You have to remove Christianity to impose and install that. It’s classic Marxism. And Karl Marx is just sittin’ around applauding the work that’s being done right here in this country.”

No. I am not leaping to conclusions.

I have not got the time to check her beliefs but I am not assigning her beliefs based on her campaigning for a political candidate.

Because that would be a mistake.

If you have proof that she believes in banning abortion directly, show us.

Because otherwise you are pretty much demonstrating ‘guilt by association’ pretty nicely.

And please explain how me keeping Riley on that list supports my point about 8 feminist voices.

I could just as easily said “great stuff. We are down to 7! And three of those appearances were Kara Dansky! And three are not from
the USA!!

Shall I do that instead? No issue for me except you seem keen to portray a young woman guilty by association rather than finding out yourself for sure what she believes.

oh you're so confused

and also you're not respecting my lived experience

so now i'm confused. I thought you were kind?

GC feminists don't want women to be defined on the basis of sexist stereotypes. The reason women are oppressed is because of the type of body we have, not because some of us wear lipstick. GC feminists also seek equality of opportunity for women. that's the 'feminist' bit

yer chappy doesn't give a shit about sexist stereotypes. he knows who buys all the christmas presents and earns 10% less than whom, and it's entirely possible that he's completely cool with that and thinks it's the natural order of things. that isn't addressed in the clip or article you posted

so based on that he is neither

1. gender critical
2. a feminist (which we knew because he's a bloke)