Model response to a dilemma for women in the left-right storm (really?)

It would have been good to have TC / trump fans seeing the great Aja and Bindel etc explaining why and how women are a sex class.

Agree It needed a better edit imo. Sterling interviews though. Aja's sentence that she thought women's rights were won will have spoken for many. That clip should have been first imo.

And to get back to KJK - because let's face it, this is what all this is about isn't it?

Yup. I have been waiting for this thread to mention KJK.

Like others I'm not angry about the film makers' decision. I'm not even surprised. Yes, I did find the film boring but plenty of others haven't. In fact, only 2 of us on this thread have said we didn't enjoy, as far as I can remember.

It's the statements.

Either way, it is their decision whether to accept an offer or not. They did make it a statement, even from the beginning. And that is fine to as long as there is complete honesty in the motivation.

I have watched the video twice. I have sent it to a friend in the USA. Will he get it? I don't know. It is actually not that engaging if you are not actively interested in the topic. It is also feature length. The things like the squirrels, the baby, the vacuuming woman do not add a thing and detracts from it, in my opinion. Maybe someone thought they were a good idea.

It almost needs chapters embedded into it so people can move through it.

However, it is good and it will be assure many women watching it. Will it be informative and interesting to others, I hope so.

So what's the point of limiting the reach of your message and stopping other women from hearing it?

TC definitely has sent "the message" out, with KJK and others. Matt Walsh for example. (Some also think fox is using this type of feminism to "soften their image.")

I do agree with this perspective, that you just get the message out far and wide what ever means. Thats definitely how Bindel uses the Mail, mainly around dv and trafficking. We will never know which way will benefit most here; the film makers have drawn their line.

This is advertising psychology. Some things do work better by word of mouth. It's not as fast, definitely. There's a lot of twitter discussion though and clicking on a number of "pro the decision tweets" reveals a few academics and women in the US who welcome the move. Plus it's being translated for Europe.

I agree but I do feel the context of American politics/ media/ feminism is a different kettle of fish.

We are lucky here.

Helen Lewis did a fab interview with Karen Stenner who researches authoritarianism in the US. She keeps her politics quiet though it's clear she's left leaning reading between lines. And yet she has had to become independent, out of academia, to get her research published and heard. Because a third of humanity are predisposed to authoritarianism there's nearly as much "left" authoritarianism as there is "right."

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000y7sq

There's room for the reverse; deliberately attempting to reach only left leaning people. Remaining independent. All bases covered. Just as has been said for KJK et Al. These leftist people have an inbuilt filter that automatically rejects anything even slightly connected to the right. They cannot see nuance. They're happy Biden is in and Biden has TW in high roles. In their minds, It's a sacred caste. TC is evil, end of. As pp said, they'd watch to know what to oppose.

If the left is so rigid and narrow-minded, then they aren't going to be reached via leftist platforms either. They already think TW are a "sacred caste" so any kind of criticism will be interpreted as right wing and therefore not heard. So what's the point of limiting the reach of your message and stopping other women from hearing it? Maybe there are women out there who are open to hearing it, but are disillusioned with the left and not watching left-wing media? Way more people watch Joe Rogan's show than they do mainstream media - should they be discounted because they're not sticking to their traditional political lines?

Also, why not be more confident of your message? Women might well be persuaded if the message is clear and makes sense to them, even if they're only watching to "know what to oppose". If you're speaking the truth, it's going to get through to at least some people, no matter where they hear it.

I bloody salute the women in the film who spoke with such bravery and passion about their experiences.

"A model response" is Kay green's opinion. So not the film makers.

It seems they did just ignore TC at first. Then were pushed by twitter to say no thank you and elaborate (I agree pious) description as to why.

The original post on this thread is clearly by someone who views KJK's work to have been appropriated, which I can appreciate. (having recently had the same done to me professionally and I'm furious.) It is however an entirely different approach to KJK's activism, as an art form / documentary. NOT by Matt Walsh. I Appreciated that film, I can't share it with some of my leftie besties though. This I can share. To open the conversation. L

The little I know about American left/ right divisions is that they're exceptionally deep and zero room for nuance. One lefty fitness mother of girls I spoke to in the deep south has read testosterone Rex and still felt trans id males should compete with girls at school.

Feminists (kjk - says she's not a feminist ) were criticised for "fraternising" with the right, and yet the reasoning was clear and her message has definitely reached the right people, along with others, (many republican voters) for action to be taken.

There's room for the reverse; deliberately attempting to reach only left leaning people. Remaining independent. All bases covered. Just as has been said for KJK et Al. These leftist people have an inbuilt filter that automatically rejects anything even slightly connected to the right. They cannot see nuance. They're happy Biden is in and Biden has TW in high roles. In their minds, It's a sacred caste. TC is evil, end of. As pp said, they'd watch to know what to oppose.

Lack of platform is a big issue, though being free adds an advantage.

It seems it's being translated into a number of languages which will help. Playing the long game is still part of the game.

Imagine a world where...Tucker Carlson invited left wing feminists onto his show and spoke to them like human beings and women watching could see a whole other angle to life, the universe and everything.

We used to say if just ONE life is changed for the better it would be worth it.

Apparently not.

And to get back to KJK - because let's face it, this is what all this is about isn't it? - what I find exciting, thrilling even, about her events is that she encourages women who've never made a speech in their lives to get up and speak in public. I think it's a genius idea.

This. She really gives everyone a voice, which is a huge part of her appeal.

I feel like I've said this many, many times before, but there's right-wing and there's far right-wing. You'll see plenty of left-wing women working happily with Conservative politicians such as Emma Nicholson and Miriam Cates. The American Christian right is a wholly different kettle of fish - much more akin in their views to fascists (and I hate using that word, because it's overused, but this is really what we're talking about). Not only do they have extremist views, but they are very deeply anti-women. It's like expecting Martin Luther King to ally himself with the KKK because they've found an issue on which they have common ground. Who gains from such an alliance between feminists and the far right? Clue: it's not the feminists.

Of course, Kellie Jay is not right wing.

She just happened to speak on a widely watched show, watched by both sides of the political line (despite other's assertions).

And Julie Bindel and other feminists also writes on media that is considered 'right wing'. I notice no feminists continue to make those associations with Julie Bindel or those other feminists.

Just for clarification for any person wanting to start 'guilt by association' type of statements again.

And to get back to KJK - because let's face it, this is what all this is about isn't it? - what I find exciting, thrilling even, about her events is that she encourages women who've never made a speech in their lives to get up and speak in public. I think it's a genius idea.

Americans are deeply tribal when it comes to Conservative vs Liberal. We don't have any real nuance. Most people trust almost exclusively left wing only or right wing only media.

Delphinium20 that's a very stark picture, and you know your country better than I do, but there must be significant numbers who don't identify strongly with either tribe? Surely? Otherwise how does a change of government ever happen? And wouldn't this be the very group everyone wants to reach and influence?

What Bernard said.

Certainly my issue is not the film makers not wanting to publicise their film through certain channels, it’s their pomposity

I have had it up to here with virtue signalling left wingers who think they own feminism. It’s such a small minded position. And my attitude to the film makers and their silly statement is informed by that

And the comparison with ‘right wing media’?

KJK has chosen to speak to Tucker Carlson on Fox News.

I also enjoyed the Matt Walsh film but I still think he's a raging misogynist.

Fwiw I don't find footage of TRAs shouting to be exciting either. Bit of a weird assumption that I was bored by the film because it didn't have enough violence! Actually, I would like to see more storytelling. I thought the Matt Walsh film was excellent because the storytelling was so well-crafted.

And I'm not "angry" that the filmmakers wouldn't go on TC. I just think it's silly.

I think it's fine for them to do whatever they like - make a boring film and refuse to promote it. Fine. The only bit that somewhat annoys me is the statement that this is a "model response" because clearly it's an extremely political and partisan response.

I'm surprised to see so many posters claiming not to have enjoyed the film and to be angry that the film-makers refused to go on Tucker Carlson. If the film is so awful, why do you care?

Personally I thought the film was excellent and enjoyed it a good deal. But it's up to the film-makers which tv shows they do and don't go on. The film has a very British focus so I can't see much is to be gained by going on a US tv show. And Carlson isn't "right wing" in the way that, say, Liz Truss is right-wing. He's far to the right of that, and is deeply anti-feminist. Why would they want to use him as a platform to promote their views?

And the comparison with ‘right wing media’?

No @Helleofabore

I was saying undoubtedly content from KJK is more edgy and exciting for some people and some people will be put off by it.

The poster I quoted found the Adult Human Female film boring. Lots of people think it is great and believe the women featured are doing brilliant work. I think it was anything but boring.

Some how not so how

Sappho.

Can you explain in detail your comparison here?

Are you, personally, now making claims that Kellie Jay Keen is so how responsible for TRA protestors or that she shouldn’t be posting the live streams of her rallies? Because that seems to be the implication of your words. Is that what you mean?

I just think their tactics are ineffective and divisive. And their statement is virtue signalling nonsense. And their film is boring. I wish they'd be more interesting and effective, that's all.

Some people will engage with right wing news platforms and / or exciting social media videos of violent TRAs shouting and fighting at a rally. Some people will engage with calm, measured women explaining the negative impact gender ideology has on women. Horses for courses.

For example, good number of democrats watching TC are hate-watching. Seeing this issue on there…well it tells them what to oppose.

Doesn't that depend on how convincing the message is?