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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Can I be forced to use pronouns?

307 replies

nationallampoons · 31/12/2022 14:38

Hi all.

I work in hospitality and my company have recently taken on some new recruits.

One is non-binary and uses they/them pronouns but is considering she/her pronouns. He was born male. He looks male. He had the same uniform as you would expect, neon hair, piercings, multiple badges on his uniform stating his pronouns, he's vegan, free Palestine, f Boris etc.. (I'm not against freeing Palestine or vegans) but you can imagine the type. Everyone's a "facist" etc.. it's draining at times.

Here is my problem, I don't want to use they/them pronouns. It feels unnatural when talking and I struggle with it anyway. I just don't want to do it, I don't care if that makes me rude. I'm just sick of it. I'm sick of being moaned at for misgendering. He just doesn't shut up about it.

Now he's saying he believes he may be a woman and is asking questions about "women hood" and all that bs, I've told him I'm not comfortable talking to him about it and I was called a boomer, a Karen and a gammon?? He is considering changing his pronouns in the new year.

Here is my question. Legally, can I be forced to use his preferred pronouns? Not arsed about losing my job, but I don't want to get into any criminal trouble

I just want to go to work, earn my living and go home. I don't have the time or energy or willingness to go along with this bullshit

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
DameMaud · 01/01/2023 17:18

Catiette · 31/12/2022 23:38

This is really thought-provoking, with so many interesting points. I’m undecided on the best approach to take - which, as a teacher, is far from easy (to all those asking when one ever uses third person pronouns to refer to someone in their presence anyway, teachers have to - a lot, and with an uncomfortably attentive audience!)

I think one point that may not have yet arisen (sorry if it has), though, is that all courtesies are, by definition, a social construct and contract in themselves - and, typically (if not universally) the product of an almost intangible evolution towards a continually shifting consensus on what is / isn’t polite in different contexts. In a sense, then, using preferred pronouns isn’t unambiguously progressive, and rejecting them isn’t definitively rude, even if it feels like that ;and it dies, to me. That it does is, rather, a reflection of a growing consensus and contract. And that’s where this gets interesting. Because there clearly isn’t an established consensus yet, and contract implies a reciprocity that seems lacking in this particular context, as others highlight above.

I think this is, in part, because this particular linguistic and social shift has been relatively abrupt - and perhaps you could say somewhat artificial? - in the sense of it being quite consciously engineered by a minority movement. That in itself isn’t necessarily a bad thing. It could be positive. But it may also come with issues. And that’s where the debate should begin and why debating it seems legitimate, as long as this is carried out respectfully and sensitively. It is, after all, ironically, respect and sensitivity that both sides are arguing for!

One logical starting point is, for me, to recognise that some of the more concrete societal changes that are parallel to, and exist in a clear, if complex, symbiosis with these linguistic shifts - for example, the accelerating movement towards gender neutral toilets as inclusive, and a collective sense that positive affirmation is advisable - are not unambiguously, definitively positive. Women ARE losing access to the single-sex facilities the Equalities Act acknowledges do benefit them. Cass DOES express concern about current straightforwardly affirmative approaches to the treatment of gender-questioning teens.

And that’s why I personally do feel a deep-seated ambivalence and discomfort using opposite-sex pronouns for students in my classes. I do it, but am giving something up myself in giving them this. This is my current compromise.

For those who wonder, I think that what I give up includes

  1. My absolute certainty that I’m fulfilling my duty of care to the best of my ability.

I worry that, in affirming the social transition of confused children, I may be somehow complicit in harming them by compounding diagnostic overshadowing or catalysing familial strife. A standard expectation that a medical professional condones this approach by teachers, and that a gender-questioning child changing their pronouns receives additional support, would go a long way to mitigating this for me.

In addition, I’m uncomfortably conscious that for me to, for example, call a boy “she”, is to explicitly condone, in a public forum full of malleable, naive and vulnerable adolescents for whom I’m a role model, the belief that gender supersedes sex in some or all contexts. I don’t see how this can’t contribute, however slightly, to solidifying some or all of the more concrete parallel societal shifts that remain potentially problematic? Young lesbians are being taught (literally; I queried a lesson plan about this as homophobic) that they should feel attraction to the male body; girls are learning they should accept a grown man in the changing rooms (ref. that distressing Primark video). It’s in large part through adults’ use of language and behavioural modelling that such conventions are taught and normalised: say please and thank you, it’s ok not to talk to strangers, don’t go into the bar area of the pub. Each seemingly insignificant use of a different-sex pronoun must add up up to a cumulative normalisation of values that, yes, very probably do have the potential to help some individuals - but also come with the risk of harm to groups; that are a kindness to some, but not to others. Again, this suggests a need for nuance. It’s hard, though, because the immediate responsibility to the individual, especially a child, will always feel paramount, with social change more abstract and reassuringly intangible.

  1. My own integrity. I’ve been asked to withhold a child’s pronouns from their parents, and this troubles me still. Someone I deeply respect equated this to not disclosing to a carer that a student has come out as gay, but I don’t think the two are wholly comparable for a number of reasons, including the ongoing uncertainty re: treating such children, the sense that (ironically, given the end of 1) above) adherence to each individual’s requested pronouns itself sometimes seems more ideologically driven than a considered and professional response to each child’s unique needs), and, lastly, the proactive nature of the, for want of a better word, deception - actively changing my pronoun use for the parents from what 500 other children and adults are used to me using in public spaces feels, quite honestly, rather sickeningly duplicitous in the moment.

  2. My sense of self.

It’s genuinely how I feel each time I use an opposite-sex pronoun now. It wouldn’t have been before reading widely on the current threats and quantifiable damage to women’s rights, but now I feel, as I do it, my guilty complicity in all the concrete shifts that these ostensibly courteous linguistic parallels facilitate: the rape victim forced to call her attacker “she” as per guidelines as were; the little old lady in the hospital ward instructed by nurses to perceive the male opposite as female as per some current NHS policy documents.

And last bit not least, there CAN a personal cost in addition to all of the above: the knowledge that, in using the opposite-sex pronoun, I’m certainly perceived as signalling my adherence to an ideology that denies me my own, sex-based sense of self, instead aligning the idea of man/woman - who or what I am - with socially constructed values I may not agree with. This truly is no small thing to ask of me.

So. My current preferred solution would be to use names and “they”. I hope this would go some way to respecting the deep-seating need for the trans student - for whatever reason this may exist - to be liberated from the shackles of their sex and the binary as they see it, without driving them towards a potentially problematic affirmation as research drags on. It would also liberate me - from feeling compelled to redefine myself in the eyes of others. This too, I feel, in the light of the current implications for women, is a similarly important kindness.

Sorry for the length. Another opportunity to work out my thinking in something I find, as a decidedly left-wing liberal, deeply troubling and complex. Who knows, I may feel differently tomorrow (whole new year, after all!)

Thank you for sharing your very nuanced and considered thinking process @Catiette .
Was going to paste a short excerpt rather than your whole post, but thought it was worth quoting your whole post in case anyone missed it from earlier.
You echo my thoughts and feelings exactly.
Reading people's processing rather than formulated opinions can be really helpful for others who are confused/conflicted I think.
I think this issue, as you say, really centres on 'consensus reality'.
I posted this link a while ago on another thread, and I think it is well worth reading to understand this as core to this debate:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consensus_reality

Boiledbeetle · 01/01/2023 14:27

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · 01/01/2023 14:01

Tell people that you are considering changing your name by deed poll to Karen and wish to be know by that name from now on.

Not just your first name, though - go the whole hog (pun intended) and become Karen Isa Gammon Grin

Pretty. I like it.

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · 01/01/2023 14:01

Tell people that you are considering changing your name by deed poll to Karen and wish to be know by that name from now on.

Not just your first name, though - go the whole hog (pun intended) and become Karen Isa Gammon Grin

Theeyeballsinthesky · 01/01/2023 12:18

exactly helleofabore so many teenage girls reassure each other they completely pass as boys and they really don’t. It isn’t remotely kind to tell them they do

Helleofabore · 01/01/2023 11:40

because I would use the opposite sexed pronouns of their best friend.

would not of course!!

Helleofabore · 01/01/2023 11:34

My own teen tried to tell me I was transphobic because I would use the opposite sexed pronouns of their best friend. It was a very interesting discussion
with me calmly stating my boundaries and explaining them in detail. My teen has been convinced by social media, tv, and peer pressure that these males pass so very well.

My 16 year old teen then informed me they believed their female friend passed completely as male. Even when that friend is presenting as a feminine ‘boy’ (their term) wearing clothing that clearly reveals their breasts.

They believe that teenaged female is passing as a male.

That is where we are. That is the reality of ‘being kind’.

Ameanstreakamilewide · 01/01/2023 11:16

SantaCarlaCalifornia · 01/01/2023 00:23

Where does it stop? Will we have to remember 20 different neo-pronouns if we work in a large organisation?

Well, they think it'll never happen, it's so easy to use they/them and it's lovely and kind and makes them feel good about themselves.
No thought to people who can't remember the ever-changing pronouns, people with learning disabilities, well they can just do better.
How lovely and kind.

My niece says she's non-binary. She's a nice enough kid, but she does suck all the oxygen out of any room she's in.

Her cousins are also supposed to tow this party line and coddle her as much as her parents do.
She even told my 11 year old son that she was a boy, and my husband had to have a word with his brother about it.

She expects they/them pronouns, which her mum obliges, but her dad refers to her as she/her, sometimes.
My sister in law has barked at him across the room to 'correct him'. 😳

Now, my father in law has a cognitive impairment, bless him, with all that it entails.
He can't remember when his birthday is, most of the time, so he has no chance with my dopey niece's self indulgent nonsense.
My mother in law gets quite tense, about remembering to call my niece by the new name she's decided to call herself.

So, all in all, it's just too damned stressful for my m-i-l and f-i-l; and my m-i-l asks for me and my husband to 'be around', if they're going to be spending any time with my niece and her parents.
They need a buffer, bless them and I find that outrageous.
I stick to my m-i-l like glue during these occasions.

This is a couple in their late 70s, who are actively avoiding spending time with their son and granddaughter.

Don't tell me it's 'kind' to use someone's ridiculous pronouns.
'I don't see the harm in it'.

My niece only has to snap her fingers and everyone else has to fall in line. 🤨

Well, bollocks to that.

Helleofabore · 01/01/2023 11:08

Not to derail further with discussions on teenagers, however there are some excellent studies in the Break it down for me thread.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me?latest=0

And there are sites with more links (and some dissection but I encourage people to go to original sources before reading the analysis and form your own opinions):

The Cass Report : cass.independent-review.uk/publications/interim-report/

segm.org

genspect.org

www.bayswatersupport.org.uk

www.transgendertrend.com

These are just the start.

Helleofabore · 01/01/2023 11:00

But you know boiled that my contribution pales beside some of the amazing contributions from very knowledgeable posters! I have loved reading them.

And they are much more concise…

(and bigly words for light entertainment too!)

Helleofabore · 01/01/2023 10:56

Princessglittery · 01/01/2023 10:29

@Helleofabore the question of whether or not what you describe is a naturally occurring phenomenon definitely needs researching. It also needs accurate data collection to understand why this is occurring and to identify the appropriate responses from schools and society etc.

A while ago I read an article from a respected Doctor in the field of gender dysphoria in children. They had for decades seen very young children e.g. 5 years old with dysphoria but they had had never seen what they described as rapid onset gender dysphoria in teenagers. The big question is whether or not there is an element of social contagion, possibly supported by social media.

Data collection and analysis is key to understanding why this has only very recently started to occur. This is why, despite expert evidence given at the committee stage, it is very disappointing the Scottish Government vetoed an amendment to collect data? Why would you not want to collect data on children and teenagers having medical treatment and it’s long term impact? Why would you not want to track adults to see the impact of medical treatment, how many start the transition process and the decide to detransition etc.?

The Interim Cass Review also pointed out the poor record keeping along with the fact that there are different routes into children/teenagers identifying as trans/non-binary and the varying outcomes, with most not identifying as trans/non-binary as adults. The Cass Review also made it clear affirmation was not a neutral act.

I see two very separate concerns about gender identity beliefs and the widening of the trans umbrella. The first is making sure children/teenagers are safe and medicalised treatment is only possible once they become adults. The second is primarily men with AGP who do not have gender dysphoria.

This is why many on this thread are not prepared to use preferred pro-nouns as it is not a neutral act and implies support for gender ideology and encourages boundaries to being push in terms of medicalising children/teenagers and ending up with male rapists who do not take hormones or have surgery being placed in female prisons.

My previous responses were manly from an HR/employer perspective where I would expect preferred pro-nouns to be respected as it is a reasonable request.

I agree with you glittery.

And I agreed with your advice from a HR perspective. I have a limited time working in the industrial relations sector, but you were very clear.

I have articulated to a couple of people who I have had in-depth discussions about this with about the connection between the two groups. When you look at who set this in motion, we know it was mature males influencing the policies and why.

(I do encourage any reader to google Denton’s and trans and read the original source material if you can find it still)

Those male leveraged the needs of children and teens (the majority being female) to their own advantage. They prevented discussion and research with ‘no debate’. FFS I remember seeing ‘no debate’ when I became really aware of this issue in 2019. I was shocked how discussion was shut down and prevented.

All while our children were being harmed.

Because treatment plans were forced by those mature males to suit the male needs. Not females and certainly not females who were vulnerable and/or children and teens.

That is exactly why when posters come onto threads and use such blatant emotional manipulation, as ‘be kind’, ‘where is the harm’ and ‘it is progressive’ at the same time as showing intolerance in their own prejudiced views of those disagreeing with them, I find their inconsistencies rather revealing.

Boiledbeetle · 01/01/2023 10:47

@Helleofabore ooh keep going, I'm slowly trawling catching up and am most enjoying your efforts this morning.

Tis the first day of a new year and @Helleofabore is up and at them.

You go you wonderful woman of the cunty kind.

B x

Helleofabore · 01/01/2023 10:39

Teenagers are another aspect of the discussion that afterfire keep mentioning.

Afterfire said ”I just don’t see the harm in going along with it”

Well I do. And my friends with trans identifying teens under extensive mental health support do.

It was because my friend’s started to talk to me about their tweens/teens gender issues that I started to get an inkling about this. Poster’s talk about respecting their teen’s friends. Have those posters, such as afterfire ever supported those teen’s parents through the very difficult decisions that need to be made?

I now have four sets of parents who are my close friends and one work colleague that I sit and listen to about the immense mental health issues of their children and the manifestation of those health issues into gender identity ideology.

Because it is ideological in the demands being made.

What each of those young people have in common, is fragile mental health. And three I know are getting regular support and the support is exploratory in nature and social transition has been a contentious issue. Explicitly not recommended at the start in two cases, yet the teen’s friends and other well meaning people did just that.

I have had two tell me that the school (same school) socially transitioned their child without permission. And both times were against their child’s mental health therapists recommendations and the parent’s choice for explorative treatment.

If you have teens with friends, do you only have a close enough relationship with the parents and have you actually listened to the pain that entire family is experiencing?

Yes, it is very common with teens. Particularly with female tweens and teens. Do you understand why though? And have you any knowledge about treatment? Do you understand why experts such as Dr Cass stated that social transition is not a neutral action.

You must do because you posted this :

”Do you not realise that people are perfectly capable of being aware of the information and research regarding the other point of view and yet still be capable of seeing a different view point?”

And

”Many people are here arguing about things they have no experience of”

So you must be aware of all the discussion from different aspects around the treatment plans for children and young people.

And that using pronouns can solidify an identity that a child or teen feels they cannot them change for many different reasons. No, it is not neutral at all.

So, I will disagree with you. And not because I am regressive or ignorant or hateful.

Your posts have reflected your prejudiced view of this board. That has been very clear. Have you ever really read the threads though with an open mind? Do you understand just how many people on this board have trans loved ones?

Or have you just decided that people who disagree with you are doing it from a position of hate and not being progressive?

HootyMcboob76 · 01/01/2023 10:37

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Princessglittery · 01/01/2023 10:29

@Helleofabore the question of whether or not what you describe is a naturally occurring phenomenon definitely needs researching. It also needs accurate data collection to understand why this is occurring and to identify the appropriate responses from schools and society etc.

A while ago I read an article from a respected Doctor in the field of gender dysphoria in children. They had for decades seen very young children e.g. 5 years old with dysphoria but they had had never seen what they described as rapid onset gender dysphoria in teenagers. The big question is whether or not there is an element of social contagion, possibly supported by social media.

Data collection and analysis is key to understanding why this has only very recently started to occur. This is why, despite expert evidence given at the committee stage, it is very disappointing the Scottish Government vetoed an amendment to collect data? Why would you not want to collect data on children and teenagers having medical treatment and it’s long term impact? Why would you not want to track adults to see the impact of medical treatment, how many start the transition process and the decide to detransition etc.?

The Interim Cass Review also pointed out the poor record keeping along with the fact that there are different routes into children/teenagers identifying as trans/non-binary and the varying outcomes, with most not identifying as trans/non-binary as adults. The Cass Review also made it clear affirmation was not a neutral act.

I see two very separate concerns about gender identity beliefs and the widening of the trans umbrella. The first is making sure children/teenagers are safe and medicalised treatment is only possible once they become adults. The second is primarily men with AGP who do not have gender dysphoria.

This is why many on this thread are not prepared to use preferred pro-nouns as it is not a neutral act and implies support for gender ideology and encourages boundaries to being push in terms of medicalising children/teenagers and ending up with male rapists who do not take hormones or have surgery being placed in female prisons.

My previous responses were manly from an HR/employer perspective where I would expect preferred pro-nouns to be respected as it is a reasonable request.

Helleofabore · 01/01/2023 10:28

”I do understand the point but I don’t agree. I don’t feel threatened as a woman because someone chooses to use they / them. I am still and always will be “she”. Mumsnet has such a weird stance on all this stuff and it just isn’t reflected (thankfully) in real life.”

Maybe because Mumsnet brings together the many impacts of the ideological aspects of gender identity. Maybe because this is a collective analysis from people who see a picture that you obviously don’t see.

We are often told by some posters that they will always be a ‘she’. But what does ‘she’ mean when it no longer describes a female human of any age? Posters are saying that they are a ‘she’ just the same as someone like India Willoughby is a she. Is that true? Why

Or to extrapolate this further, are you, afterfire,
a she like one of growing male porn stars making money from views for masturbating in the female toilets with their estrogen grown breasts (maybe enhanced with silicon) and a fully working penis while a mum is next door toileting her children. One of the clips I saw contained the family speaking in English by the way.
Others in different languages. So this is happening in a wide variety of countries.

And you cannot use the trope ‘there are bad females as well’. Because it is a flawed comparison. A female who commits horrific crimes is still a female through their biology which is a material and unchangeable fact.
You (a general ‘you’) do share that aspect and probably many socialisation aspects around that body.

What do you share with Dana Rivers, afterfire?
Please tell us. Because I don’t feel I share a thing with that male, who seems to use womanhood for their fetish. How do you feel about that?

Helleofabore · 01/01/2023 10:16

I think afterfire that there is inconsistency in your posts from
start to finish.

You started off with a very direct statement of “They do not want special treatment.”

Then you posted that you do understand that these individuals are seeking special treatment, it is just that you also believe they are progressive and you want to extend that extra respect them that they demand.

You acknowledge that ‘special’ treatment (not always a negative thing by the way) of someone else is the requirement of you to change your behaviour away from the accepted norm.

It is disruptive in this way.

”The key thing here is whether we are going to acknowledge that pronouns now include they / them as well as he / she. If we are going to do that as a society - which is what is happening now- then it’s not “special treatment” anymore than referring to someone as he / she. “

You seem to have chosen to accept that disruption through accepting language evolution. However, are you only listening to the loud, popular group of the population on this issue and then saying that is the ‘new way’ of things so you choose to go with it. While not acknowledging that the wider population are not actually changing their language.

Some will be masking their reluctance due to the risk of their livelihood, their family or their friends. Is this true ‘acceptance’? No. Of course not.

It does though add to this false perception that ‘everyone’ is doing it and therefore it is a societal change.

“It’s a complete movement and acceptance of use of language.”

No, it is not. Because that would imply that the ‘change’ is abiding. I have listened to quite a few of my friends who are just beginning to realise the implications of this forced language change (by the way, not through conversations with me because I haven’t had time to discuss it with them), now either drop the presence altogether or admit that they are only doing it to keep the peace.

That is not an abiding change. That is coercive and once that coercive force is removed, the language will revert.

You mentioned ‘tolerance’ a few times upthread, afterfire. Have you read the polls, there are several of them from different initial viewpoints, that have discovered that the group of the population between the ages of 13 and 28 yrs old are the least tolerant group in the UK population? They are the group who absolutely are intolerant of other people’s opinions if it doesn’t fit narrowly into their own political alignment.

Is this the group that you want shaping language and policy for all others?

That is why people are pushing back on your posts.

Your Maybe. But that’s where we are now.” is very reminiscent of where some other posters have already been. Your posts come across as only superficially understanding the issues. Or do you really believe that even after recognising the breadth of these issues that pronouns are both a sign of progress and not something to be concerned about.

And for all your talk of ‘tolerance’ your later posts descended repeatedly into the predictable prejudiced views about this board.

All while declaring it is possible to have an ‘intelligent’ discussion…

MrsOvertonsWindow · 01/01/2023 09:49

A wonderful nuanced post at from Catiette yesterday at 23:38 that so carefully unpicks the tragedy of all this for children. The world we're enabling where adults deliberately teach them a lie - a falsehood - along with the enforcement techniques to demonstrate the child's compliance with this open lie.

Helleofabore · 01/01/2023 09:43

BellePeppa · 31/12/2022 16:52

Crikey, what are the odds of having so many gender confused people in your children’s social circle? Surely this should tell you that’s it’s all a lot of attention seeking nonsense by kids who don’t feel special enough to just be the sex they were born into. We all know that fifty years ago this would have not have been a thing.

It’s a fashion, a trend like the thick eyebrows girls were sporting a few years back. Unfortunately it’s a very dangerous trend. I won’t be obnoxious I’ll use their name or ‘you’ or ‘they’ but not he/she.

Last year my teen was in a group of 7 friends and 5 of those friends had declared trans identities.

This year, my teen has remained friends with only 1 of those, but has now a new friend that has a trans identity. So, out of my teen’s current group (4 friends) two have trans identities. Both of those friends were part of a different friend group of about 5 from what I can gather, and four out of those 5 had trans identities.

I have four close friends who are mothers of trans identified children and one work colleague. (I know quite a few others socially but they are acquaintances and the topic is not discussed )

And this is across different religions and different cultures. Plus of both sexes. And sexual orientations, but mostly they are same sex attracted.

I would like any poster to tell me that this is a naturally occurring phenomenon. What have activists said over the past few years ? Just like being left handed? No. It isn’t.

Mummyoflittledragon · 01/01/2023 09:32

THisbackwithavengeance · 01/01/2023 08:11

Haven't read the whole thread yet but if a colleague of mine tried this sort of shit with me, I'd go on the biggest wind up ever. Eg.

OP could buy a copy of the Daily Mail and take it into work every day.

Get a Vote Tory badge/flyer and stick them around the staff room.

Tell people that you are considering changing your name by deed poll to Karen and wish to be know by that name from now on.

Talk loudly about your house price and your pension and how great it is not to have a mortgage.

You could have a real laugh with this.

😂😂😂

I really think you should put in a complaint about the way you are being spoken to op. It is vile and bordering on hate speech.

Thereisnolight · 01/01/2023 09:26

THisbackwithavengeance · 01/01/2023 08:11

Haven't read the whole thread yet but if a colleague of mine tried this sort of shit with me, I'd go on the biggest wind up ever. Eg.

OP could buy a copy of the Daily Mail and take it into work every day.

Get a Vote Tory badge/flyer and stick them around the staff room.

Tell people that you are considering changing your name by deed poll to Karen and wish to be know by that name from now on.

Talk loudly about your house price and your pension and how great it is not to have a mortgage.

You could have a real laugh with this.

😄

Helleofabore · 01/01/2023 08:12

PerfectYear321 · 31/12/2022 15:33

Good for you

This lot will lap it up because you've used all the clichés

Enjoy your thread

And yet, the OP has been given some excellent advice and this thread will have been informative for others.

If you as a poster cannot do anything but attempt to shame the OP, readers notice that too.

Things you describe as cliches, don’t become irrelevant because you choose to label them as such.

THisbackwithavengeance · 01/01/2023 08:11

Haven't read the whole thread yet but if a colleague of mine tried this sort of shit with me, I'd go on the biggest wind up ever. Eg.

OP could buy a copy of the Daily Mail and take it into work every day.

Get a Vote Tory badge/flyer and stick them around the staff room.

Tell people that you are considering changing your name by deed poll to Karen and wish to be know by that name from now on.

Talk loudly about your house price and your pension and how great it is not to have a mortgage.

You could have a real laugh with this.

OneMorePlant · 01/01/2023 02:06

Afterfire · 01/01/2023 00:08

I haven’t said I disagree with this. I still think using they / them if someone asks you to is the polite, tolerant and modern thing to do.

Couldn’t care less whether (as mentioned upthread) Eddie Izzard wants to be called a woman. We all know he was born a man. And it doesn’t make me any less of a women or damage my own gender by saying yes ok, I’ll call you a woman.

There are, however, many trans people, like my dds friends, that you would not have a clue they were ever the opposite gender / sex than how they introduce themselves. And that’s okay too.

I will never feel threatened by someone choosing their own pronouns. My own gender isn’t that fragile.

It's not polite its fucking exhausting. Its the Stroop test real life equivalent and it's disrespectful to demand that other people change their language to accommodate you.

And most trans people are clocked constantly. Women have developed good instincts to clock men or to know when something is off.

Your gender might not be that fragile but most of us don't believe gender even exists so none of us care about your (non) fragile gender.

What we care about is that men stop colonising and disrespecting womanhood and infiltrate our single sex spaces.

RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 01/01/2023 01:38

Afterfire · 31/12/2022 16:25

Maybe. But that’s where we are now.

And where Ukraine is now is being constantly attacked by Russia.

Should Ukraine just accept that Russia has the right to attack and invade them, that that’s the direction things have moved in now so they just have to live with it? Should they accept Russia’s claim to sovereignty over part or all of their country, and stop fighting back? According to your logic, yes.

You don’t see the whole “preferred pronouns” thing, ie the imposition of Gender Identity Ideology on people who don’t subscribe to it, as an unjust attack or invasion because it’s been carefully presented as a social justice movement and it has the support of lots of liberal types and young people.

But it is an attack: an attack on women’s rights, LGB rights, child safeguarding, and the rights of anyone who doesn’t want to live in a quasi authoritarian culture.

It’s an invasion of spaces, services and sports originally meant for biologically female people (the disadvantaged sex class) by biologically male people (the dominant, privileged sex class).

It’s been sold to you as social progress. China’s cultural revolution was sold as social progress too: have you seen how that worked out?

You seem to think people only object to GII because they’re against the natural evolution of social ideas. But for many or most of us it’s because we can see this was no natural evolution at all but a top down propaganda and lobbying movement funded by immensely wealthy and influential (male) people. We can see it’s primarily for the benefit of already-privileged male people, and has achieved a standing as a minority civil rights movement and a form of social progress that it absolutely doesn’t deserve.

Far from standing in the way of progress, we are fighting back against a very real attack on our own human rights by those who already have more power. Like the Ukrainians are doing when they resist Putin’s Russia, even though Putin would have you believe his invasion is some kind of “liberation” of lands that justly belong to Russia, that his is a socially just war.

And we would like to see real social progress in terms of societal understanding that there is still a very long way to go before female people are truly valued as much as male people in this hopelessly misogynistic world we live in, and that that is the goal we need to be travelling towards if we really want to build a better, safer, more just world for everyone.

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 01/01/2023 01:37

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · 01/01/2023 01:02

The female musician Halsey has requested she/her and they/them, and demands that publications interviewing her alternate between using she/her and they/them in the copy.

That just seems the logical next stage, for people who want to feel special and can't think of any other way than pronouns to do that.

Once everybody realises that endless changing and alternating is unsustainable, we'll end up with they/them as standard for everybody - even though 99.9% of people don't identify that way; they can just put up and shut up, as they aren't the special ones.

Following this theme, there is an incredibly irritating radio ad for a particular cat food, in which the voiceover actress refers to her singular cat as they and them. Her script directs her to comment that the cat's coat and health has improved since she started buying Expensive Cat Food Brand, but I cannot trust the judgement of a character who pays so little attention to her cat that she does not know her pet's sex!

I am now resolved never to try that brand, as I now inextricably associate it with the type of person who puts too low a priority on animal welfare to remember whether non-human animals are he or she. Such people tend to be exceedingly neglectful pet-owners, and I have some bitter anecdotes about that, believe me.

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