How do you speak up without being called transphobic

Seconded. Why is it the job of biological women to accommodate trans women in our spaces? Why is the conversation never about the culture of toxic transphobia in males that make men’s prisons and toilets feel unsafe for trans women?

Oh yay!!! Panic mentioned yet again!!

How bizarre that your post mirrors what most posters on this board think from my time reading their posts, but you feel the need to frame it as ‘panic’ somehow.

“My DD's generation really doesn't care, they just aren't self conscious in the same way”

My teen’s generation certainly don’t have the life experience to understand what they are ‘not caring about’ . And remembering me at that age, I had nowhere near the boundaries I developed in my 20s, which were still less than my boundaries now.

Saying your daughter’s generation are not ‘self conscious’ in the same way is meaningless because of course as we gain perspective from processing our experiences we will have greater understanding.

FFS my teen has been attempting to convince me that their best friend who is clearly a teenaged female passes completely as a male teenager, just short! No thanks, I am not interested in allowing females with no or little life experience to make changes to laws and policies such as toilet provision.

You, personally, might feel very comfortable with unisex provision (I am not talking about single toilets in a coffee shop) where you, personally, draw the boundary.

I choose to listen to those women who have stated clearly what they need and extend my boundaries to now include their needs, and then protect my teen’s generation’s future needs for them.

I couldn't care less if I was called transphobic. The opinions of men who want to take over women's spaces don't interest me.

Well that was as clear as mud

It may have been my bad pick up of your response to a poster to agree with you without engaging directly with the original one

@JoodyBlue Ah no worries JoodyBlue. I'm just glad there is a fellow sister in this madness 😊

My DD's generation really doesn't care, they just aren't self conscious in the same way

When the inevitable statistical percentage of your DD and her friends have their eyes opened by bitter experience, we'll be here for you, and her.

@atomsgirl I think you have misunderstood where I stand on these arguments. Probably because I have at some point expressed myself poorly. I do not have any argument with a single thing you wrote.

@JoodyBlue I used to think the same way you did. It seems reasonable.

But when you start to look into it, it's horrific.

Those born with male genitals are stronger and faster than those born with female genitals. This is a fact.

But men are competing in women's sports, men are in women's prisons, men are in DV centres, men are taking awards aimed at women, committee chairs, and so on. Is this right?

And what about 16 year old boy decides he identifies as female, and can then access 16 year old female changing rooms?

No safe spaces means sex perverts and paedophiles can easily access vulnerable women and children.

Not only that, if we aren't viewed as biological women, all the stats will be incorrect in relation to crimes such as rape, and wage equality, and so on.

Personally, I am very concerned what the future has in store for women and children.

😂@SamphirethePogoingStickerist

Dad = DD obviously! Bloody auto cucumber

You seem to have come in at the end of the movie!

Single use facilities are not the issue.

The sex of surgeons is not the issue.

It's those common sense single sex areas that are the issue.

And if you think women saying no to any male wanting to use single sex female spaces can ever be wrong you are part of the problem.

Your Dad's generation is flooded with all sorts of crap that only strengthens the patriarchal grip on society. From girls/women's magazines discussing anal sex as though it is common, every day and not something a modern young woman would object to, to all the be kind, TWAW bollocks that further eroded their boundaries. We can only hope that their awakening doesn't come via a nasty incident. After all it isn't about being self conscious it's about being safe, being allowed privacy and dignity. Those natural barriers that all decent human beings adhere to.

I'd quite like men to show gender non conforming men (ie trans women) respect and provision ... in the men's toilets, the men's prisons, the men's rape trauma centre, the men's changing rooms, men's sport etc.

This. This. This. This. 👆🏻

I'd quite like men to show gender non conforming men (ie trans women) respect and provision ... in the men's toilets, the men's prisons, the men's rape trauma centre, the men's changing rooms, men's sport etc.

I'm quite happy to show respect and provision to gender non conforming women.

That's easy, isn't it?

other option is additional an additional third "unigender" space - but not at the expense of disabled provision - but that never seems popular.

My DD's generation really doesn't care, they just aren't self conscious in the same way

Well whoopdeedoo for your DD and her incredibly fortunate friends who've yet to discover the world isn't all unicorns and sparkles.

and with respect @gogohmm the word "panic" is used in the same way as the word "transphobe". Stop making points and arguments, sit down, and shut up!

Yeah we tried being nice being kind being polite offering new third spaces.

NO BIGOTS WE WANT EVERYTHING came the reply.

honestly it's not that complicated to live together whilst showing respect and provision where necessary.

That isn't what's happening though.

I think there is a balance and both sides seem unable to see that the other has a point!

My take is, there are times when single sex spaces are important and that should be honoured eg shared, hospital bays, changing rooms without individual cubicles and in these circumstances all public spaces should have provision for those who do not fit into the gender binary so nobody is made uncomfortable eg a side room at the hospital or a disabled changing room. In other parts of society moving towards unisex facilities is a better option (eg smaller public spaces like coffee shops often have unisex single facility toilets). For services like prisons they need to have a system in place to safeguard the trans person and the other inmates, it's not rocket science. In a few professions, where there is genuine need, single sex provision should be an option eg non emergency gynaecology, intimate nursing, counselling following rape, but it is pretty limited after all, who cares about the sex of their brain surgeon!

We need to get over the panic, honestly it's not that complicated to live together whilst showing respect and provision where necessary. My DD's generation really doesn't care, they just aren't self conscious in the same way

Temporarily at best.

If one group of people can change reality by changing words, then any group of people can change it to something else by changing the words. A group may rise by the incoherent tosh and manipulation and have created the means by which they will fall to someone else's incoherent tosh and manipulation.

It's all very short sighted, childish and the thing about trying to block out reality is that it doesn't go away, it just comes around behind you and bites you in the bum.

I am not surprised. Devon NHS Trust twitter account was reprimanded for calling women ‘pregnant people’ whilst continuing to label men and boys as men and boys.

My local hospital thankfully still has signs saying Women's and children department.

I had to go there for a scan in the summer during a week where 'pregnant people' was being discussed quite heavily on here...

Women's and Children Department

Sat there in the waiting room, waiting for a scan
Everyone a woman, though a few had brought their man
You could tell which ones were pregnant and none of them a man
It was the women with the bellies on the way in for their scan.

@nilsmousehammer sadly I think there is something in that argument, especially if comprehension control starts in infant school.

There are many people (men and women) thinking this is a good thing because to quote Victoria Coren here: www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/12/transgender-free-speech-bbc-jenni-murray-victoria-coren-mitchell?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email

it’s the transgender lobby’s moment. The future is now! The smashed spectacles have become a clenched fist, the stammering croak is a battle cry!

For me the issue is still not understanding what trans is. It is incoherent, a feeling, an assertion that results either in overstepping spaces of the vulnerable or in surgery on healthy tissue. I don't understand why we are teaching this to children. The whole issue is under comprehensively understood. Was quite upset to read that piece to be honest.

Much of this political movement is based on the fond belief that if you control the words and control everyone else saying the words you can change reality and make the unwanted bits go away.

As opposed to just making everyone really pissed off and forcing them to explain reality increasingly loudly and in very small words.

It's the m word. We cannot refer to m'ing because it is upsetting to those who m.

Keep up!

I am not surprised. Devon NHS Trust twitter account was reprimanded for calling women ‘pregnant people’ whilst continuing to label men and boys as men and boys.

See here - men get to be called men, not people with prostates! So Trans activists have not called out these tweets about males for excluding trans women. It’s almost as though they don’t care about trans women accessing appropriate healthcare such as prostate exams. All they seem to care about is maintaining the fiction that trans women have changed sex and that every little bit of discussion they challenged their view is transphobic.

if you think this is wrong, please tag @jane_milligan who is the chief executive of Devon NHS Trust. They need to retrain their social media manager.