If we stopped all the nonsensical gender stereotyping we wouldn't be in this mess at all. Or at least not so much (given extreme male woman-haters would find some way to get at us).
I don't really think this is true.
It's not about wanting to wear a dress or make-up, fundamentally. It's about wanting, for some reason (which can vary) to be perceived as the other sex. If the social customs associated with that sex were different, that would not change the basic goal.

Gender and sex are not the same thing. Which is what some of us have been pointing out for at least 4 decades.

Wearing a dress doesn't make you a woman. Wearing dungarees, having body hair and weilding a huge wrench doesn't make you less of a woman.

Gender stereotyping is dangerous rubbish that consigns women to helper roles. Steward(ess) rather than pilot (nothing wrong with being a steward on a plane)
Nurse rather than doctor (very different jobs but you get what i mean?)
Teacher rather than headteacher or professor

Being expected to take on the domestic load, getting zero acknowledgement of it. And then standing aghast as World's Best Dad changes a nappy to rapturous applause.

If we did away with gender roles, expectations and stereotypes - would we have as many trans identified people? And if we did have genuine trans identified people, we would have more resources to help them, if the AGPs and TRAs weren't sucking them up.

I'd be banished for ever to the naughty corner that is netmums.

Don't risk it. You're not allowed to swear there.

I don't really think this is true.

It's not about wanting to wear a dress or make-up, fundamentally. It's about wanting, for some reason (which can vary) to be perceived as the other sex. If the social customs associated with that sex were different, that would not change the basic goal.

Just found this on twitter (thank you Dennis and the original poster) seemed apposite, i hrtft so apologies if it's already been posted:

Keep an eye out.It might be on offer in the sales

My DD's generation really doesn't care, they just aren't self conscious in the same way

You mean the generation born with 24 hour social media monitoring, hard core porn, upskirting, spy cameras, choking, revenge porn doesn't really have any boundaries?

No way.

Ah thanks, i don't have that subscription, which is why i can't activate it.

girl mode is only a thing if your a famous wealthy male coming to the end of his good-looking ( all things are relative) as a man years.

is it more important that she should learn that she has no right to expect sex to be a mutually pleasurable thing she seeks out to enjoy and desire? No right to a sexual orientation? Or should I teach her that her desires and her feelings mean nothing, because she was born with female biology. And there are men who will identify as women, and as lesbians, and then wish for her as a homosexual female to provide access to her body because her homosexuality validates their identity, and her biology matters when it suits the male but she as a female must never mention out loud knowing that biology exists?'

@nilsmousehammer Id really like to do that in bigly letters but I'd be banished for ever to the naughty corner that is netmums.(is that a thing? Or have i just imagined that)

Bit wordy though the mnemonic is going to be a bitch

And the gender stereotyping that leads to people feeling they are in the wrong body anyway?

well, this, all day long. I really thought we 2nd wavers had got this one finally put to bed. But no. "girl mode" is apparently a thing. It's a mode i don't generally have. But then nor is "boy mode" so where does that leave me?

Grumpy. Annoyed. Frustrated. Glad I'm not 40 years younger.

Thank you nilsmouse. Thank you for your constant clear headed posts!

I'm trying to teach my lesbian daughter about consent, boundaries and sexual health. Do you think it is more important that she should learn about how to pleasure a penis...

Er, I think it would start with 'is it more important that she should learn that she has no right to expect sex to be a mutually pleasurable thing she seeks out to enjoy and desire? No right to a sexual orientation? Or should I teach her that her desires and her feelings mean nothing, because she was born with female biology. And there are men who will identify as women, and as lesbians, and then wish for her as a homosexual female to provide access to her body because her homosexuality validates their identity, and her biology matters when it suits the male but she as a female must never mention out loud knowing that biology exists?'

I am not sure any parent wishes to raise their daughter to be a silent, compliant therapeutic sex aid, who expects no right to choose, to have an orientation or her own, or does nothing naughty like gatekeeping her body from males who wish to use it to meet their needs. And who have no time or care for hers.

Are we really going to send our gay daughters out to be abuse victims looking for somewhere to happen? And are we going to do the same to our straight daughters, or is this a special burden on the homosexual ones?

OP to answer your question the best I can I propose 2 techniques

Sandwich, something like this

1. Certainly I think that...
2. But I do worry that...
3. Of course that doesn't mean...

e.g.

1. Certainly I think that keeping transwomen safe from sexual assault and physical violence whilst imprisoned is a legitimate and important aim
2. But I do worry that putting transwomen in general into women's jails is not a reasonable solution for the women inmates, especially but not limited to their cellmate.
3. Of course that doesn't mean we shouldn't do anything to see that transwoman are punished for breaking laws in an appropriate and humane way - I just strongly feel that putting them in a woman's jail is not the right solution.

and asking questions that promote critical thinking e.g.

I'm trying to teach my lesbian daughter about consent, boundaries and sexual health. Do you think it is more important that she should learn about how to pleasure a penis and that she should be on long term contraception because it is impossible to know which of the women she sleeps with might impregnate her, or that she is taught about biology and contraception accurately and told that her sexual orientation is an important boundary which should be respected by other people and that whilst it is certainly ok to be bisexual and choose to sleep with both men and women (or experiment to see if you enjoy something) it is also perfectly reasonable to not be bisexual and choose to limit your sexual partners by their sex which is to say their biological sex. You may be ok with women including those who would describe themselves as afab nbs, or afab transmen and still not wish to sleep with men or amab nbs. The point is YOU get to set your boundaries and choose who to sleep with and not sleep with. NO ONE is entitled to sex with you.

Sorry deleted the bit i wrote about sterotypes, basically i rejected them as they just seemed so bloody arbitrary.

Over the years I've never embraced the femininity of womanhood. I've sometimes hated my body for being female (it causes a lot of issues). Sometimes I've wished I was a man, (knowing that if i was my life would be better). I've even wondered what it would be like to be a man, to experience going for a pee, having sex, being redirected instantly just fit being male).

But wishing doesn't make it so. I've been able to go through all of the above and have it, rightly, stay as just what it is: a thought experiment. But then that's because i was brought up anchored in the reality of the meaning of words and biological facts.

If i was young today... I would be one really unhappy, confused, messed up kid.

And the gender stereotyping that leads to people feeling they are in the wrong body anyway?

Why do you have to be a woman to wear make-up and a dress? If a bloke wants to wear make-up and a dress, he can. He doesn't need to call himself a woman and use female loos.

If we stopped all the nonsensical gender stereotyping we wouldn't be in this mess at all. Or at least not so much (given extreme male woman-haters would find some way to get at us).

I approach speaking out by making sure I have legislation and scientific studies on my side - e.g. Equality Act, The Forstater ruling, Building regulations, sports bodies' policies and peer-reviewed studies.

That doesn't stop some people still claiming you're transphobic, but it gives you a solid basis to respond. If they're claiming you're transphobic for asking for appropriate application of the Equality Act, well, the law of the land is also transphobic.

I have seen men being accepting of transwomen in their spaces, but that's not what some transwomen want.

But also maybe have a quick think if it really is transphobic

I'm past that at this point when even breathing seems to be transphobic.

I'm not transphobic.anyone calling me that is probably a multitude of phobias wrapped up in narcissistic rage and I'm not their therapist.

honestly it's not that complicated to live together whilst showing respect and provision where necessary.

In general i am only seeing one "side" of this told to #BeKind. But in essence i agree. There is a way that we can all live together.

In terms of being called a transphobe, as with many undeserved epithets the trick is not to care. But also maybe have a quick think if it really is transphobic (which is what i'd do if someone called me homophobic or a racist, for eg)

Asking for the "cervix haver" type of language to be binned in favour of "women and those who identify as women" (see, i can compromise) is not transphobic. Any more than it is transphobic to invite "men" for prostrate examinations.

Asking for same sex provision of intimate care isn't transphobic. It is deeply insulting to suggest otherwise (the thread on twitter by the disabled woman is really helpful in showing why)

Attacking FGM survivors and campaigners as transphobic is batshit and should always be countered. People who perform FGM know who the girls are and their targets can't identify out of that. See also women and girls slowly being firmly shut out of daily life by the Taliban. (there's even a Guardian article by an Afghani woman saying that in the 90s she disguised herself as a boy to go to school, that's not possible now)

Sex selective abortions show us that we know that sex is determined before birth, and saying that "AFAB" is ridiculous as a concept is not transphobic. The sex is observed at birth. That is it. The sex is observed, nobody is saying "here's your girl, she must forever wear pink and do tinkly laughs and headtilts at men's pearls of wisdom for her entire life"

Refusing to have the epithet "cis" applied to me isn't transphobic. In fact if you insist that TWAW, you surely don't need to have a subset for natal women, do you? you're separating trans women from women. That's more transphobic, IMO.

And so on. Stay factual, keep emotion out of it all and refuse to engage if people get shouty at you because you're a transphobe committing literal violence. And if anyone ever tells you that the trans community are the most marginalised, perhaps ask them why women keep getting arrested for stickering and tweeting, but trans-folk aren't being arrested in similar numbers for actual violence

I'm raging just knowing what's happening to women's rights, and I don't have kids and future generation of family to think about.

Those of you watching your children and grandchildren try to live in this new version of reality must be horrified about what their future could end up like

HUGE GROUP HUG

to all of you

No, they weren't!

Who are not ‘as’

I am just like many parents on this board at the moment who are absolutely seeing the damage that is happening to our teens and children.

And many off the board too. I have too many friends across two countries very distant from each other, who are parents a directly dealing with supporting their children. That is why I laugh, rather than cry, when we have posters telling us ‘you should go and speak to trans people!’ Or ‘you obviously don’t know any trans people’. I know I am not alone in how prevalent this is amongst my friends as parents.

The people who use that defense on a parenting site’s board set up to discuss the impacts on women’s and children’s protections of another group’s demands are projecting their own deep prejudices and ignorance.

FFS my teen has been attempting to convince me that their best friend who is clearly a teenaged female passes completely as a male teenager, just short!

@Helleofabore 💐and suddenly your posting style makes so much more sense.

Big hugs (I'd used the big letters but I've already been very frivolous with them this morning.)
Boiled x