Woman mistaken for a man and challenged

if society has gone backwards and is now less tolerant of difference, it’s not the fault of radical feminism, nor of the women who want single sex spaces to return to being single sex.
I agree it's not the fault of radical feminism but I still don't see challenging non comforming women as to whether they are actually a woman as part of the solution. I think in balancing the harm caused on challenging/not challenging the harm has been underestimated on several levels. And just answering safe guarding isn't sufficient. Safeguarding matters but not every action is justified because of safeguarding. That as a principle quickly falls apart.

I am a shoe size 8 woman. The pushback to those trying to frame woman as ass and tits, is a strong as the pushback against women using the discomfort of the challenge to let men walk in female toilets.
Not talking about how this can be uncomfortable for those challenged should take nothing away from the fact that the particular woman in this story was correctly challenged and she had no right to give away the space because of her discomfort. using female politeness to cause discomfort until the implicit yes looks like it will never stop. Knowing what is coming, we should not self censor, We should no longer mince our words, We should no longer be decent.

the fault is actually on the part of activists and the men who have forced entry to women's spaces without care or respect for the impact upon women, and forced women to begin to be anxious about who is in their spaces.

yes, exactly! And this is the broader problem- it’s not transwomen we fear, but the general atmosphere of not being able to question men in our spaces.

You mean this thread?

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4691390-girl-got-a-new-haircut-father-shocked-by-the-things-strangers-now-say-to-her?page=1

I think you seem to have forgotten your persistent distortions of what was being said on that thread. Shall we go back and remind you of just how you twisted it all around, and shall we also remind you that you started accusing people of child abuse?

Yes. Rather.

it is always interesting to see people show us who they really are (usually garden variety misogynists) by crowing about the distress of women and girls in these situations.

Those doing just never understand their hatred is there on display with their glee.

So another woman who got herself in the newspaper with a hyperbolic story about how hurtful and frightening it was to be asked now and then whether she was in the right place turns out to be a transactivist.

Quelle surprise!

Meanwhile, there are exaggerations throughout this thread, where asking the question is hyperbolically described as harrassment, where the women asking are called angry women, with no evidence of the anger anywhere, and now women are vigilantes and even to ask is illegal.

I personally think it is unlikely these challenges have increased. I was asked whether I was in the right space thirty or forty years ago, as a teenager with short hair. It happens. My butch lesbian daughter told me she has never been challenged, presumably because It’s actually more acceptable for men to be in women’s spaces than it used to be and the social contract that has pushed for this change, that tells us that to challenge is rude, still means that most don’t.

To challenge women incorrectly is a big deal to me because it plays into the shit idea of a woman being about superficial things.

Which is being exacerbated by transactivism as well as by consumerism. Feminism was never about pushing female stereotypes and if society has gone backwards and is now less tolerant of difference, it’s not the fault of radical feminism, nor of the women who want single sex spaces to return to being single sex.

Oooh do I get to do the Thing? I do don't I!

"Woman here"

As a woman, with respect for other women and the distress, anxiety and suspicion they now have to deal with in single sex spaces due to the absolute inability of male people to have interest in or compassion for anything but their own immediate needs?

I'm perfectly happy for other women and girls to challenge me as often as they need to, and to provide reassurance that I am in fact a woman. My voice and reaction (not shouting "respect me!" or waving a sword around or threatening to rape or kerb stomp them just as an example) will do it in seconds. I rarely dress or present in the 'approved' manner according to the stereotypes provided by males that are apparently 'living as a woman'.

Very happy to ensure and support the comfort and emotional safety of other women in a single sex space. Delighted to. It's a shame male people have chosen to make this necessary but male people apparently are gonna male.

Sorry if this has been mentioned but one part of the story is confusing me. They mention 13 out of their 23 lymph node’s were affected but the human body actually had hundreds of lymph nodes. It’s a strange story.

We might have left the EU, but I think that I'll continue to apply the precautionary principle rather than take a laissez-faire approach.

You prove to me that never challenging anyone in a toilet is 100% safe, and I'll agree to banning it.

And your talk of "vigilantes" "policing" is utterly ridiculous. Politely asking someone "are you sure that you're in the right place?" is nothing like mob justice.

Well that rather proves my point then. If a passer by had said "no, you can't go in there" it could have prevented the assault.

Of course none of this would be necessary if men (however they identify) reliably kept out of women's spaces. You don't appear to have anything to say on that aspect.

Crime stats barely scratch the surface of the figures of those who would do harm to women and to children. If people were aware of the real number of male sex offenders around they would never want their children to use public loos.

So I understand where the desire to question comes from. I disagree on the sentiment though that it's a tiny bit of hurt feelings in exchange for the safeguarding benefits. To challenge women incorrectly is a big deal to me because it plays into the shit idea of a woman being about superficial things. Put on some high heels and lipstick and you are a woman. It's allowing the TRA agenda to push us into treating women badly, questioning their womanhood.

I used to always wear ultra feminine clothing to try counteract not being womanly/delicate enough. I spent years in heeled shoes that were small. Now my size 7 feet are very comfortable in trainers or sturdy boots. I'm not setting out to present as GNC.

Defend your right to challenge in the toilets but don't belittle the experience of those who you have challenged. Especially not because they have told you not to worry or said it doesn't matter afterwards! We women are pretty well conditioned to make others feel better. If you feel you must challenge at least acknowledge this is a shit impact on women.

"It’s akin to challenging people parking in disabled spaces and asking to see their blue badge."

Which anyone with a blue badge is entitled to do. Women have a right to single sex spaces. It is no one's right to give this away. Even if they don't like to be challenged. And women's dignity is of infinite value and doesn't have to be quantified to make men stay away.

Finally, what you actually need is a foi request of police recorded assaults reported in toilets of public spaces, irrespective prosecution status. It's a great idea, thanks. I'll make sure my mp gets an unadulterated copy.

Hell yes it is ok to challenge people parking in disabled spaces without a blue badge. In fact, its actively policed and enforced with fines. Thats why you generally see only blue badges in disabled spaces. Its a pity the same courtesy couldnt be extended to parent and child spaces where every man and his dog identifies as a parent and takes away a valuable space.

The point I'm trying to make in a very roundabout way, is that people have lost respect for others, and unless a behaviour is challenged and policed by others, it is not adhered to.

What evidence can there be of a prevented assault? Man challenged, leaves, no assault takes place-according to you that is no evidence.

Anyway, I bid you a good night @Onnabugeisha, and salute all the women who do not accept that men should not be challenged in women's toilets. A vast majority of GNC women seem fine with that, and fully comprehend why it happens. Perhaps, one day, so will you.

Also, vigilant is not the same as vigilante, as they often say on this board-words have meanings.

@Onnabugeisha

I haven’t suggested it was illegal. I’ve said it’s policing by vigilante women. It’s akin to challenging people parking in disabled spaces and asking to see their blue badge.

Your analogy would only be correct if you were talking about people identifying as being disabled (and not actually disabled), and wanting to use the disabled space that was created for actual disabled people.

People who identify as being disabled (but are not disabled) shouldn't be entitled to use something that was created for those who actually need it.

So in other words, if we apply the logic you use in all these threads, you actually think it's okay for non-disabled people to use disabled parking spaces and disabled toilets.

Because there’s no evidence it actually prevents sexual assault? So if there is no benefit, then why should gender conforming women be encouraged to challenge virtually always GNC women in the toilets?

I haven’t suggested it was illegal. I’ve said it’s policing by vigilante women. It’s akin to challenging people parking in disabled spaces and asking to see their blue badge.

Yep, that's exactly as described by my daughter.

@Onnabugeisha 'Tiffany isn’t what I would call physically intimidating.' - to you, perhaps not to all women?

Still don't understand why you're so keen nobody ever asks anyone if they're in the right toilet.

You've even suggested it's contrary to the law, which is quite amusing.

*bring

Or how to prove it isn't possible to prove a negative. Don't being sexual assault into this. We could be here for ages.

Perhaps you should direct you ire at men who insist they're entitled to use women's?

Please explain me where it hurts you when someone asks you if you're in the right toilet, because according to my daughter it's not a problem in any way, and she understands why it happens?

Tiffany isn’t what I would call physically intimidating.

The rape which never occurred in the single sex wing of the hospital

I think it must have been someone else? Katie D was never challenged in any womens toilets. The victims raised the alarm after escaping.

transcrimeuk.com/2019/02/02/katie-dolatowski/

😂