Woman mistaken for a man and challenged

That was a line in the newspaper that jumped out at me too. TBH, the whole story was a bit suspect to me.

I'd rather not be feeling like I was going to get challenged every time I went in a female toilet because I didn't look "feminine" 🙄 enough even though I have every right to be in there, that's more intimidating and threatening to me than the will I or won't I see a trans woman in there going about her business and probably doesn't even give a toss about what others are doing in there and just going for a pee like the rest of us

Yes, I'd rather be challenged in every public toilet I entered than live in a world where women are so intimidated and cowed they won't speak up for themselves. You?

I think women should always be able to challenge anyone they worry is putting their safety at risk.

.....well only the very unwell ones, let's put it that way.

I've never actually encountered one unwell enough to do that.

MrsOvertonsWindow 😆

OP, Seriously? This old chestnut gets rolled out time and again. How fortunate there’s always someone there with a camera (in the toilets FFS) to record the event 🙄

'I was playing with my breasts like a stress ball' uh huh, like all women do. 🤔

That's rather like replying to the issue of men raping women in women's prisons by saying that we just shouldn't put people in prison.

At the moment, many women can only access single sex toilets. And men using whichever toilets they prefer, excludes women from any provision at all in order that men can have the freedom of choice and validation they would like.

Demonstrating that a powerful group are successfully disenfranchising and oppressing a less powerful group. Which is what equality legislation is for: to protect the interests of the less powerful when the more powerful lack the conscience or ability to equally respect the needs of others.

Are you really that naïve? The person has decided that they don't want to identify as female. And yet theyre complaining that they’ve been challenged when entering the ladies toilets. Bit of an own goal here don't you think?
”I want you to see me as neither male or female but I’m also going to present as male and use the ladies”.
Clearly you don’t approve of harassment of people in toilets. Neither do I. Which is why I don’t want any males in there as I consider that to be harassment.

Murderers? Muggers? Sorry I'm being obtuse I hope it comes across with the tongue in cheek intended. I do I know more aggressive crimes are committed by men, but I also know the vast majority of men are safe to pee near. And if safety is the key aim, then safer spaces would work for everyone? I also think some loos are less likely to be safe (eg those used alongside drinking at night) and I think a much higher standard of architectural safety there would be great. I have felt unsafe in (single sex) loos when people had too much to drink and were fighting eachother etc. I do think loo safety is a real issue. It's just doesn't translate to a strictly trans issue to me at all.

Do men mind when trans men use male toilets? Why didn’t the transman use the male toilets?

transmen using male toilets poses different issues to transwomen using female toilets- quite obviously transmen aren’t from the group that are a threat to the users of male toilets

@mumarooni csn you think of a name for the category of person who typically make toilets unsafe. Starts with an M.

Don't be silly.

We just want the social contract that already existed, where male people stayed out of private female spaces. We didn't "police" it then and we should not have to now.

It is the genderist males, with their entitled expectation that female spaces should be open to them because they really, really want them and it's just not fair to have people say no when you really want something, who are insisting that they will ignore what women (original female meaning) might actually want, and that it's fine that male people will take what they want unless they are physically prevented.

I’ve never understand the tra gotcha of showing women who have taken a shed load of medication and had surgery and ther for look male will make women uncomfortable and therefore toilets shouldn’t be single sex.

it’s so odd. The whole point is BASED on the point that women don’t want people who have male secondary sex characteristics in their single sex spaces. Well exactly.

my argument in response is - well it’s very rare for a women to fully pass as male when properly interacted with (although I do think trans men pass more than transwomen)

and secondly - if they acknowledge women may be uncomfortable with trans men well then they are by logic acknowledging women will be uncomfortable with actual men. I think the reason they don’t see the logical flaw is some delusion that transwomen pass. They very rarely do.

Welcome to Mumsnet OP. Well done for finding this board. Are you "as GC as they come...?

Surely the point (for the third time) is that male people have pushed female people to have to be wary and concerned with whether the person in front of them in a space where said female does not feel safe to be with male people, is masculine presenting or a male.

In this case, a female but presenting quite intentionally as masculine. It would be nice if some TQ+ people could find a bit of respect and compassion for female people and the need for single sex female only spaces. It would not take much reading to educate themselves as to what the issues are and how they could help female people as opposed to make life harder and more inaccessible for them. #bekind

Personally I don't mind who uses which loo, happy to share communal sinks etc with anyone as long as they are not being threatening, mean, or intimidating. I would like loos to be designed with two entry/exitdoors to the communal bit, or sinks within individual cubicles opening onto public spaces for everyone's safety. I think making loos safe should be the priority over and above who pees where. how awful to need to pee and feel you have nowhere to go. I would never question anyone in a loo for simply using it. But I would say something if people were behaving badly in there and intimidating or threatening others.

If a person feels harnessed in the toilets by someone apparently of the opposite sex , you are totally right that shouldn't happen

If the person feeling harassed challenges the apparent bully that is also totally fine - we should all be able to stand up for ourselves against bullies and wrong doing

If the apparent bully was actually innocent then that could hurt their feelings -but that's no more hurtful than what the first person felt

If the apparent bully was in fact a man - that's very bad
If it was someone hoping to be challenged , making sure they looked wrong to get a social media story that is also very bad

Now I don't know what happened because I wasn't there but the assumption that women should not challenge apparent wrong doing is truly enabling evil - if not in this case then at a future time

We all have a duty to challenge wrong doing

I have broad shoulders and have never felt like I look very feminine. My family always joked about me looking like a "big man". As an adult though I found confidence just being myself and found my own style, after pretty bad self esteem growing up.

In very recent times I have felt self conscious about whether I look feminine enough, and feel fearful of being challenged using ladies loo. I felt awful when some security guards loudly called me sir and sniggered. I blame the gender nonsense for focusing on a stereotype about how a woman looks. I am supportive of single sex spaces.

Like..they're AFAB non-binary..how does this change the story? Do you approve of harassment of people in toilets? Like normally you're demanding strict separation of facilities by birth sex...

I don't think women here approve of anyone getting harassed. But if male people insist on forcing their way into female only spaces (which is harassing) and have no regard for the impact, fear, distress, lack of privacy and dignity and exclusion that they cause by doing so? In the belief that their desire to be in that space is more important than the impact they have on others?

They can hardly be surprised that female people have begun to get defensive and suspicious about who is who in their spaces. To view this as bad behaviour is rather like criticising someone for asking you to stop stamping on their foot.

However it does raise the question that if you look too masculine, is it okay for other women to challenge you?

Yes. Unequivocal yes.

It has happened to me several times. As soon as I responded, sometimes even before I spoke, the challenger recognised that I am female and apologised.

No big deal for me, but very important for women.