Radio 4 today 23/12/22

I have a bit of time this morning, so have transcribed the Helena Kennedy bit. Hopefully @MoirasSaggyBundles will see this before restarting, but if not, then there is no harm in having two versions transcriptions I guess :)

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Following on from transcript above - Radio 4 23rd Dec Approx 8:10 am

JW: Alright, well Lord Garnier, thank you, let us now turn to Baroness Kennedy...
Helen Kennedy, Criminal Rights, Human Rights Barrister of course, and also member of the House of Lords.

What do say on the business of safe spaces for women, Lord Garnier is saying it is not clear whether there is going to be any impact or not.
Do you believe it is clear?

HK:
Well, listen, when it comes to places like prisons, um there are already very careful risk assessments made about prisoners who might cause a risk to other prisoners in an institution, um one of the most alarming things is where a very, er, female type of man, a girly man, is put into a male prison and let me tell you the threats to that person’s safety are huge and a much more real risk than the business of somebody who is trans, a trans woman going in to a women’s prison and I…..

JW: Are you saying there isn’t a risk?

HK: No, I think, of course, listen…
there is are risks in life always and there have to be very careful assessments and if somebody is likely to pose a risk that is taken into account in where they are placed.
One of the interesting things about Scotland is that it is actually reviewing the whole of its prison system and creating much smaller units…. (unintelligible)

JW: What about things like rape crisis centres, women’s changing rooms etc, do you think that the passing of this bill in Scotland has changed at all the way in which those places can police themselves?

Well its very interesting because I recently conducted an inquiry in Scotland to look at, because of the very toxic debate that there has been around this issue, to look at misogyny against women and the experience of women and the real threat to women are predatory men and they are not trans, and they are not in any way involved in the trans movement…..

JW:
No, but some could be, and that’s the point, isn’t it?
I mean, absolutely of course, everyone would accept that the threat to women is from predatory males, but the issue here is whether some of those predatory males, who can be very adept at using the rules that there are where some of them might be more able to use those rules now than they were in the past and I’m just wondering whether you think that is or isn’t the case?

HK: You will always have people who for malevolent reasons will seek to um enter women’s spaces….

JW: But can they do so more easily now or not?

HK: …just for a minute!
They are very small in number and what’s very interesting is the rape crisis centre in Scotland and the women who are running refuges etc in Scotland by and large amongst those women the response is that they want to see this legislation go through because they want to end discrimination, they want to see trans people treated in a way that’s fair and just.
And so, what’s very interesting here is that it is very much an age thing, amongst younger women there isn’t the….

JW: No, I understand that, but could you just answer my question…

HK: There is a very small number of older women who object to this….

JW:
Yes but my question was, after hearing from Lord Garner that he doesn’t know and we don’t know whether or not there is a greater risk to women or not.
Are you saying that there is not a greater risk to women or that we don’t know?

HK:
I think that the risk is very very minimal and I think that in all of the business of rights and trying to create fairness and equality in a society there’s a lot of balancing that goes on and I have absolutely no doubt that there will be cases that will be brought in the future where um we will find that er challenges will be made to the legislation but it is really only about trying to make it less oppressive for trans people because the system at the moment to get a Gender Recognition Certificate is a really humiliating and degrading one and lasts a very long time and so what they are seeking was something that was much more straightforward where it wasn’t going to involve invasive medical processes and…

JW:
Sure

HK:
…and I think that that’s a sensible way forward.

JW:
Would you like to see Keir Starmer welcome this legislation?
Would you like to see him introducing it if he becomes Prime Minister?

HK:
Well, let me just say to you that this will operate almost as a pilot, not just for the United Kingdom, but for many other countries that are looking at how to change their legislation because of the issue of trans and how to create fairness and justice for trans people who suffer enormously Justin, let’s be very clear, I’ve represented trans people who’ve been raped, I’ve um, represented trans people who’ve been seriously discriminated against in the workplace, humiliated…….

JW:
And so, should Keir Starmer introduce similar legislation?

HK:
He should look at legislation that is appropriate to England and Wales and because there are two different legal systems and what you seem to be ignoring here is that for many many er years Scotland has been able to pass its own laws and to operate its own legal system and that is no different now and the idea that the Scottish parliament should be overridden by Westminster because the Conservative party don’t like this would really be very disruptive to the unity of the United Kingdom and I think that that would be absolute folly.

JW:
Can I ask you a wider question with you with your wide experience of the law and the importance of acts, you mentioned kindness and the awful treatment that there has been in the past of people who are trans, er and still is, do you… when there are small numbers involved there is a sort of legal fiction isn’t there, that you can change sex, that is fine and that society can live with, but I just wonder whether you are worried that in terms of statistics, for instance of violence, of violent crime etc, but more widely, I don’t know…. Birth certificates, death certificates… that we just lose, actually a record of biological truth, because of course you can’t change biological sex, although you might be able to change it for the purposes of of legal things.
Do you not worry that we just, we just become a society based much more on untruths because of the numbers that might be involved?

HK:
Well, I do think that, well I mean, I certainly think that there are some things that are absolutely about biology, you know um um, the many ways that women have been oppressed have involved their biology, female genital mutilation, the removal of a woman’s clitoris so that she can’t have sexual enjoyment that was all part of a way of controlling women and it was illogical, and you know trans women will not suffer from uterine cancer, you know there are some things that are undoubtedly biological and I think that to go into denial about that is a nonsense.

But I do think that if um someone is yearning to be a woman, and all the disadvantages that come with that when it comes to equal pay and all manner of things, if that yearning is so powerful, why should it be problematic to not respect er that person’s desire to live their life as a woman?
For me, that is not problematic, I do think that we should be finding ways of expanding the opportunities for people to have the identity that they want to have and to be a society that makes that possible.
However, I think the protection of women is one of the most important issues of our time and women and girls are at risk but not by and large at risk from trans women, but from predatory men.

JW:
Alright, well, Helena Kennedy, Baroness Kennedy, thank you very much and Lord Garnier as well, thank you.

Or indeed older men who have benefited from better pay, being able to be a parent with little impact on their career or freedom who now fancy an exciting new life

@MoirasSaggyBundles I feel your pain hun

Kennedy saying that it’s only a small number of older women objecting … no it really isn’t.

This really really annoys me. Even if it were true that it is only a small number of older women objecting (it isn't) - why are the rights of that supposed minority less important than the right of transwomen to take those rights away them?

Why are the rights of young men more important than the rights of old ladies? Who are the more vulnerable in this situation? Yes it is a rights conflict but can she hear herself? I am embarrassed for her.

Fuck, fuck, fuck. Fucking webpage just refreshed itself and erased everything. Will need to re-listen and type it all out again. Have to go out for a bit now, will do it after lunch.

Kennedy is chair of this.

Misogyny and Criminal Justice in Scotland Working Group

when she mentions women she means transwomen as well. Intersectional

The thing that struck me typing that is HB's emphasis that the Gender Recognition Act precedes the 2010 Equality Act. Is the point that the legal fiction of sex, if certified, confers the protections described under the "sex" characteristics category to trans women because it came first on that statute? There seems particular emphasis here that HB insists upon.

Part 2 of the first discussion somewhere between 55 and 58 minutes in to the programme.

Justin Webb – Radio 4 Today programme.
6:55 ish on 23 December 2022.

JW: Glenn thank you.
Let’s turn to Helen Belcher who is Chair of Trans Actual UK which is a charity that advocates for Trans people, good morning to you.

HB:
Morning Justin.
What do you think about what the Westminster government is saying about what it might do?

HB:
Um well I think there is two angles, sometimes it feels like this government only knows how to pick a fight, which is very different from the mood when the Conservatives were themselves proposing this law in 2017.2018.

The second is there is no evidence from the many other jurisdictions that use self declaration of gender and Spain seems to have moved down that line as well yesterday, of any abuse which is being described.

JW:
But there are cases, aren’t there, a tiny number, but there are cases, aren’t there of predatory males in for instance women’s prisons abusing women when they have been put on the Women’s Estate and I suppose the fear is that that might happen more now.

HB:
I think you need to look at the statistics that I saw a couple of months ago that said that the number of trans women in women’s
prisons was now in single figures,so and the one case that was being quoted was where the prison service said that it had not followed the new guidelines properly. So yes, you know, it won’t come as a shock to your listeners that criminals do nasty things, criminals break the law, but that’s not necessarily a reason to prevent trans people from being treated with a bit of respect.

JW:
No, exactly so, but I suppose the issue here is that males do nasty things, and worse than nasty things to females, and the issue is whether the 2010 law that the Westminster government seems to be worried about is going to be breached by what has happened in Scotland and I think, am I right in saying, what you say and what the Scottish government says is that that won’t be the case because there will still be some spaces where it is possible for the authorities in those spaces to say - no if you are biologically male you can’t come here?

HB: Well, the first thing, first part I would say that women do nasty things to women as well it is not exclusively male….

JW: No it is not exclusively male, but in the whole history of humankind it has been male violence against women hasn’t it?

HB: I’m not saying that male violence against women is not a problem, it certainly is….

JW: Sure

HB:
…but we don’t restrict rights on the basis of a few people.
So the second, to turn to your other point, is that there is simply no evidence, which I said earlier that there is no change to the Equality Act which has been affected by this law, um it was repeated again and again and again, the Equality Act is not within the Scottish parliament’s jurisdiction to change, so the Gender Recognition Act was passed before the Equality Act, therefore the Equality Act recognises the Gender Recognition Act and you don’t need to get a Gender Recognition Certificate in order to be protected by the Equality Act.

JW: Ok well

HB: And there are situations like prisons where the acquisition of a Gender Recognition Certificate makes no difference.

JW: And that, of course, is hugely important and something we will discuss with our, from the legal perspective at ten past eight, but for the time being, Helen Belcher from Trans Actual UK - thank you.

Kennedy saying that it’s only a small number of older women objecting … no it really isn’t.

The May 2022 YouGov poll expressly asked whether acquiring a GRC it should be made easier. The answers were:

All Respondents
Yes: 26
No: 50
Don’t Know: 25

Women
Yes: 28
No: 46
Don’t Know: 26

Men
Yes: 23
No: 54
Don’t Know: 23

Scottish Respondents
Yes: 33
No: 51
Don’t Know: 16

Should doctors approval be required?

All Respondents
Yes: 60
No: 17
Don’t Know: 24

Women
Yes: 59
No: 17
Don’t Know: 24

Men
Yes: 60
No: 16
Don’t Know: 23

Scottish Respondents
Yes: 53
No: 23
Don’t Know: 19

docs.cdn.yougov.com/74l25pslh3/Internal_TransgenderIssues_220720_final_extraXbreak_FINAL.pdf

Brilliant, thank you Moira and Joody 👍🏼

I'm presuming the whole rush by the Scottish parliament to get it done before Christmas was because they are relying on the Christmas and new year shut down/slow to get going again to eat substantially into that 28 days.

@MoirasSaggyBundles @JoodyBlue

Thank you for your service☕🍫💐

Thank you “Joody and Moira* Excellent teamwork. It looks even worse when written down

And now we should get a bit more balance in who the BBC choose to interview. I think that even if they don’t find women running FPFW Sex Matters Standing for women or SKPSS or Womens Place UK, I have confidence that nearly every woman on this board could answer the questions better than these two this morning. Any volunteers ?! Perhaps we should compile a list..

Justin Webb – Radio 4 Today programme.
6:55 ish on 23 December 2022.

JW: ….. Scottish Parliament are going to be veto-ed by Westminster.
It has never happened before and it would set up quite a battle but the measures themselves which would make it much easier for people in Scotland to change their legal gender and to do so while still young has been highly controversial, it split the SNP, split Labour, split the Conservatives, let us talk first to Glenn Campbell the BBC’s Scotland Political Editor who is on the line.

It does seem to be a real possibility doesn’t it, at least they are considering the government in Westminster stopping this.

GC: Yes, this legislation was only passed a matter of hours ago in the Scottish parliament, there were cheers of celebration on one side and cries of shame on the other when the bill was passed by two thirds of the Scottish parliament and there’s no dispute I don’t think from the UK government that Holyrood has the right to change the law in this area, but what ministers are concerned about at UK level is how this change might impact on UK law, like the 2010 equalities act.
They are going to look closely at that, they’ve got a one month window to do so but they are making clear that if they think it has a negative impact they could be prepared to prevent the Scottish bill becoming an act going to the King to be signed off for royal assent and if the Scottish government at that stage want to challenge that it could end up in court.

JW: What is the issue then, in ends up with the potential clash of these two acts. What is it that the Uk government says it is worried about happening?

GC: Well the Scottish law would change the rules for people in Scotland, make it easier and faster for them to change gender, it would remove the need for medical certification and reduce the qualifying period from two years to three months and extend that to 16 and 17 year olds although the qualifying period for them would be 6 months.

JW: But would they get access to women’s .. to currently to those spaces and
I’m thinking of, I don’t know rape crisis centres, other places, where it is legal under the 2010 Act to say – no, if you are male, you may not come in.

GC: Well that was a big part of the discussion in Scotland and it was said that it would still be possible to refuse access to somebody who has a gender recognition certificate but in terms of the clash with UK law there is a decision to be made, er should the rest of the UK accept these certificates for access to services in their part of the UK and if they do not might it be possible for somebody with a Scottish certificate to challenge that decision by using the UK Equality Act.
So these are the questions that are being looked at.
I’m told that the UK government lawyers are impressing on ministers that to do nothing is not an option and as I say they now have 4 weeks to consider and to decide whether to act or not.

JW: Glenn thank you.
Let’s turn to Helen Belcher who is Chair of Trans Actual UK which is a charity that advocates for Trans people, good morning to you.

Brill job @MoirasSaggyBundles I've just done the bit pre-Helen Belcher. Will post here. I can do the JW/HB bit.

Need coffee and sustenance, then will do Kennedy!

Transcript of Justin Webb (JW) interviews on Radio 4 Today Programme, 23 December 2022 at 8.10.

Interview with Lord Edward Garnier, QC (EG):

JW: What do you think the Westminster Government should do now?

EG: Well I think they will have to move quite carefully, but they will also need to move quite quickly. Under section 30, er 35, of the Scotland Act, they have 28 days to do something about it, as has the Attorney General, the Lord Advocate and the UK Advocate General. There is a - and your introduction explained it extremely well - a number of problems, which lead to both moral and social questions and medical questions, but also to constitutional and political questions, and these are all difficult problems. Nobody wants to mistreat or to do harm to people who suffer from gender dysphoria, but equally we don't want two sets of regimes applying in the United Kingdom; under the equalities law, that is a UK matter, and for example the UK Equalities Act of 2010 allows an institution to prevent someone who has a Gender Recognition Certificate from going into an all female space if their Gender Certificate certifies that they are now male (sic); but gender recognition is a devolved matter, so it's entirely up to...[JW interrupts]...we've got a number of muddles here.

JW: On that muddle, are you saying it is not clear then; because we've heard it repeatedly, and actually we heard earlier on in the programme from a trans rights activist, who was saying this doesn't change that at all, this doesn't have any impact at all on safe spaces for women. Are you saying that is does or that it might?

EG: It might. It might. And that's the problem. And I don't think this, this has been properly thought through during the course of the rather rushed debates in the Scottish Parliament. I also have a rather less attractive political point; which I think that is, following the Supreme Court decision about the Scottish referendum, in which, for example, the Supreme Court rejected the suggestion that Scotland was an oppressed and colonial country, that the leadership of the SNP is looking for things to have rows about with Britain, with the United Kingdom, in order to demonstrate that the SNP is still on the war path as far as total separation is concerned.

JW: But on that political point then, might the Westminster Government be wise to just to leave this alone, and say, well if you want to change the law in Scotland, let's see what the ramifications of it are, let's not get involved in this fight?

EG: That's precisely what the 28 day period allows. I mean I remember years ago, when there was a distinction between the United Kingdom position and the Scottish position on the minimum price of alcohol. Was it a health issue, in which case it's devolved to Scotland, or was it a sale of goods (?), in which case it's a United Kingdom question? And it was decided in the end not to have that fight and and to let the Scottish law deal with it as a health issue. Now, this is what this 28 day period is for, and I hope both governments will use is sensibly.

JW: Another potential complication, and we know everyone agrees on this, it makes it easier to get a Gender Recognition Certificate in Scotland than it currently is, and supporters say that's a good thing and opponents say it's a worrying thing. But there's this phrase, "living in the gender", living as a man or living as a woman, for three months now for adults; is it clear to you what that actually means, what someone has to do and prove that they've done?

EG: No. And that does concern me. The advantage of the current system under the 2004 Act is that, the matter has to go before a panel which includes doctors, and they have to certify that the change in gender is one which is certifiable, which is recognisable, and that the person in question has lived in their new gender for two years. I'm concerned, as it happens, that those under 18, so essentially people who are legally minors, can self certify after 6 months - and indeed it's troubling enough that adults can do it after 3 months - but I am particularly concerned about those under 18.

JW: Alright, well Lord Garnier, thank you, let us now turn to Baroness Kennedy....

Transcript of Justin Webb (JW) interviews on Radio 4 Today Programme, 23 December 2022 at 8.10.

Introduction from JW:

What are the implications for all of us, for the passing of the Scottish Gender Bill in the Scottish Parliament yesterday? The answer is that, nobody quite knows because the legislation seems to be open to the possibility at least of legal challenge, and is potentially in conflict with other legislation already in place.

The Westminster Government has said it is considering vetoing the Scottish Bill, that's never happened before, because of its impact on the rights of women and girls under existing legislation that covers the whole UK. And (now?) controversy raises issues of course for the Labour Party. Some of its representatives in the Scottish Parliament spoke and voted against the Bill. Kier Starmer is committed to similar legislation UK wide, but hasn't commented on the passing of this measure in Scotland.

Supporters of the Bill will say its impact is minor but important. It stops humiliating medical questions, and allows a man to become a woman or vice versa, with simply a declaration, having lived in that gender for 3 months for an adult, 6 months for 16 and 17 year olds. Critics say it opens the gates to predatory males to gain more access to women only spaces. They're particularly angry that an amendment that would have excluded rapists was rejected.

We'll talk in a moment to Baroness Helena Kennedy, the human rights barrister, Labour member of the House of Lords; but first to Lord Garnier, Edward Garnier, Conservative Peer, former Solicitor General under David Cameron.

(Interview with Lord Garnier to follow)

I'll give Webb credit for this. He was one of the first, if not the first, of the big names at the BBC to push back against the ideology, and I think he puts forward criticism of the ideology as strongly as he's able. Any firmer and I think management would be having a word. You only have to look at Twitter to see

The argument that ‘predatory men’ will always find a way to invade women’s spaces for nefarious means and that this is not linked in any way to the ‘tiny, tiny’ numbers of transwomen is so disingenuous. What this movement and their handmaiden are saying is that there was never any point in having any single sex spaces. So let’s just dismantle the lot.

She also implied there has never been any point in women’s rights (because clearly women are still so poorly paid, bottom of the pile anyway, so nothing has worked) Of course, women’s historic disadvantages are not passed onto transwomen anyway - its not as if they left the workforce to breast feed children etc etc. Her whole line of reasoning is an absolute nonsense -and dangerous.