Active discussions

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

What does living as a woman actually mean?

192 replies

astrowars · 21/12/2022 21:39

So if the Scottish parliament votes for the new law, and someone can obtain a certificate stating they're a woman because they have lived as one for 3 months ... is there a definition, description or checklist to ensure the individual has done everything needed? I have a horrid feeling I may now not be a woman under such a definition!

OP posts:
Whyjustwhy123 · 22/12/2022 08:13

dementedpixie · 22/12/2022 07:46

I see it causing chaos in schools too if they will allow 16 year olds to change their gender. I would hate to be a teacher and have to deal with this shit

What could possibly go wrong? We all know that 16 year olds are sensible, mature beings who don’t take any risks…..

Wellies54 · 22/12/2022 08:11

In the new ideology a woman is literally defined as 'anyone who identifies as a woman ' hence the new breed of beardy women who are 'broadening the boundaries ' of what it means to be a woman by wearing trousers and being plumbers and expecting us all to be amazed and grateful for pointing out that women can do all these things! Therefore living is a woman is simply telling people you've felt like a woman for 3 months.

That's one of the problems here. Some people have swallowed this ideology so completely that they genuinely believe being a woman is a state of mind and that any reference to biology is like a medieval understanding of medicine.

Whyjustwhy123 · 22/12/2022 08:11

unfortunately using the definition of less pay and poorer pension won’t really work as these are generally the byproduct of our reproductive organs. ie women are the ones who take time off work to have and care for children.

So it is back to high heels and dresses (she says wearing baggy jeans, her DHs hoody and some boots)

BlackForestCake · 22/12/2022 08:05

gender shite

I love this new, scientifically accurate expression. I will endeavour to use it in future in place of “trans ideology” as I gather some people are offended by the latter term.

dementedpixie · 22/12/2022 08:04

I bet those women wish they could identify as men and no longer be oppressed or be denied their education!

JellySaurus · 22/12/2022 08:03

BlessedKali · 22/12/2022 00:46

I wasn't so clear there... We worked in a group of 7 but it was a room of about 50 people.

Anyway I'm not sure why I am relaying this story, but the memory was triggered.

Because it's a beautiful example of the fact that being a woman is biological, not performance. And that the cultural expectations of being a woman, the stereotypes drilled into us, are that we will be emotionally available to others and put their feelings before anything important to us. AKA Be Kind.

Exhausteddog · 22/12/2022 08:02

I wonder whether there are any stats on how many men feel trapped in the wrong body and wish to live or identify as a woman in Iraq or Afghanistan..?

Getamoveon36 · 22/12/2022 07:54

@Fairislefandango spot on -

“They can wear what they like, as long as they don't think it makes them into an actual woman or makes them welcome into female-only spaces.

Accused of not being genuine what? Not genuine women? Well they aren't. Not genuinely identifying as a woman? What does that even mean? It's all in their own heads anyway, so nobody else has any way if knowing whether their intentions are 'genuine', whatever they're wearing.”

Getamoveon36 · 22/12/2022 07:52

I am a woman, female, always have been. I don’t volunteer my pronouns nor insist on displaying them on every bit of communication. I reject the term ‘cis’. Am I “living as a woman”?

Theeyeballsinthesky · 22/12/2022 07:51

Yes you’re right @JacquelinePot using Women’s spaces and not being challenged about it was one of the requirements

Of course the male doctors who came up with that didn’t for one minute stop ti think “I wonder if there’s any reason why the average woman wouldn’t challenge a 6ft bloke in a dress in a space designated fir women”

SueVineer · 22/12/2022 07:50

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

SueVineer · 22/12/2022 07:48

Probablymagrat · 21/12/2022 21:55

Whatever it is, and I have no idea, I bet it wont include earning 30% less, doing most of the housework, child care, sending all the christmas and birthday cards and buying all the sodding presents.

This!

dementedpixie · 22/12/2022 07:46

I see it causing chaos in schools too if they will allow 16 year olds to change their gender. I would hate to be a teacher and have to deal with this shit

Fairislefandango · 22/12/2022 07:43

I’ve felt a lot of sympathy for trans women when they’ve pointed out that they just can’t win regarding personal presentation. If they wear a dress, heels and make-up, they’re accused of seeing womanhood as a stereotype or costume. If they wear unisex clothes and no make-up, they’re accused of not being genuine.

They can wear what they like, as long as they don't think it makes them into an actual woman or makes them welcome into female-only spaces.

Accused of not being genuine what? Not genuine women? Well they aren't. Not genuinely identifying as a woman? What does that even mean? It's all in their own heads anyway, so nobody else has any way if knowing whether their intentions are 'genuine', whatever they're wearing.

MarshaBradyo · 22/12/2022 07:43

I feel so sorry for women in Scotland who don’t want this. But who knows with Labour we may be there too

Depressing

JacquelinePot · 22/12/2022 07:42

waterwitch · 21/12/2022 23:06

Got a nasty feeling it will end up meaning using women’s spaces as a precursor to getting a GRC - not a bug, a feature

I believe that was one of the early requirements to get a GRC. Not even joking.

FaazoHuyzeoSix · 22/12/2022 07:41

i think if they are pushed to create a definition the only thing that it can be is "asks or expects others to use she/her pronouns"

anything else would clearly be open to challenge as sexist drivel, but the scant ridiculousness of such a tiny definition makes the whole thing laughable. we cannot possibly say that the only difference between men and women is what pronouns they want people to use of them. but all the other differences are either biological or the result of social conditioning such that there are too many exceptions to use them for any kind of definition.

JacquelinePot · 22/12/2022 07:41

Hip said: Yes, pretending should be referenced much more in these policies.

When, in my head, I substitute "pretend to be" for "identify as" or "live as", it always seems to make the meaning clearer.

I always switch "identifies as" for "is not"

This entire fiasco is so utterly offensive and absurd - not to mention dangerous - it makes me want to vomit with rage.

Virginiaplain · 22/12/2022 07:33

Housework, job, main child carer, main elderly relative carer, shopper, cook. etc - Oh, no sorry that's real women.

MarshaBradyo · 22/12/2022 07:29

I don’t know. Dressing up and that’s it?

Original poster
astrowars · 22/12/2022 07:28

FlirtsWithRhinos · 22/12/2022 01:52

Of course if you dig down into this at all these are very superficial things. They are the accidents of womanhood, not the essence of it. They are, though, I suppose, the kinds of things you'd do if you were disguising yourself as a woman to escape the draft, or some other reason.

They are also the only signifiers of womanhood that male people can access.

In order to allow male people to be women, womanhood for all women has to be limited to only things that can be achieved by males even though this change, so crucial to trans women's identy as women, makes the concept of womanhood superficial and almost entirely meaningless.

If all aspects of womanhood must be achieveable by males, then the only aspect that can be achieved by a trans woman but not another male is the act of identifying itself. There is no space for anything which is unique to womanhood. There is no essence.

So we have this surreal situation where TRA types are up in arms at the idea trans women may be excluded from some women-only provisions even though their concept of womanhood cannot explain what makes the provisions necessary in the first place. "Woman" becomes so empty of meaning that in practice it means nothing more than "a person who uses the women's facilities".

This exactly 👏🏻

OP posts:
bellinisurge · 22/12/2022 07:25

Less pay, slower career development, screwed pension.

gogohmm · 22/12/2022 07:12

@Swashbuckled

We've got a local guy who dresses as a woman, completely accepted for being who he is, uses a unisex shortening of his own name but no pretence he's a lm actual woman. Wear whatever clothes you want, choose a name you prefer and no issues with calling people she (or he) but that doesn't extend to access to single sex spaces. All new public buildings should either have unisex facilities (small places) or at least one unisex space (larger) to accommodate those who feel uncomfortable using their birth sex space (this includes parents with a small opposite sex child, disabled person with a carer etc)

Original poster
astrowars · 22/12/2022 06:55

Another question. If some people need a certificate to confirm they have changed their gender, does that not imply that everyone should have one to start with? As far as I know the only certificate I have which refers to anything similar is my birth certificate, which records my sex.

OP posts:
Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 22/12/2022 06:50

FlirtsWithRhinos · 22/12/2022 01:52

Of course if you dig down into this at all these are very superficial things. They are the accidents of womanhood, not the essence of it. They are, though, I suppose, the kinds of things you'd do if you were disguising yourself as a woman to escape the draft, or some other reason.

They are also the only signifiers of womanhood that male people can access.

In order to allow male people to be women, womanhood for all women has to be limited to only things that can be achieved by males even though this change, so crucial to trans women's identy as women, makes the concept of womanhood superficial and almost entirely meaningless.

If all aspects of womanhood must be achieveable by males, then the only aspect that can be achieved by a trans woman but not another male is the act of identifying itself. There is no space for anything which is unique to womanhood. There is no essence.

So we have this surreal situation where TRA types are up in arms at the idea trans women may be excluded from some women-only provisions even though their concept of womanhood cannot explain what makes the provisions necessary in the first place. "Woman" becomes so empty of meaning that in practice it means nothing more than "a person who uses the women's facilities".

What an excellent post. And yes, we should repeal the bloody GRA.

Swipe left for the next trending thread