Posie’s back!

I don’t have to agree with Posie on everything to admire a woman who refuses to be dragged down into a purity spiral. There are many ways that people try to shut women up and this is somewhat recent one that’s she’s just not having, and I applaud her for that.

It’s illustrative of how angry it makes men that their new trick isn’t working, and women, that a peer isn’t toeing the, manmade, line, along with them.

Heartwarming stuff. I hear she's still immune too.

What, in women's rights?

I very much doubt it.

I did hear he queued in the post office, next to an older woman who once sewed a flag for Greenham Common once. But I believe she got out without incident. When she went for her check up the doctors confirmed she hadn't caught any misogyny, so that's reassuring.

In terms of the issues with A Woman's Place - that organisation has posted this blog outlining their concerns womansplaceuk.org/2022/06/22/womans-place-and-posie-parker/

I understand the point of view outlined. There are sensitivities in discussing cultural differences within the UK because that is also the subject matter of yobs like Yaxley.

I think this is the basis for the accusations against her. For me, each and every issue should be discussable on its own merits regardless of personalities.

I've just caught up with the thread. The back and forth is now so familiar. I'm grateful to those posters who counter the frequent attacks on Kellie Jay with calls for evidence and queries as to why those who agree on one issue should have to agree on every issue.

KJK is an important and powerful voice. She is essential in this resistance movement. I often feel that the way in which tras will counter her is to appeal to female socialisation - our inner Beryl as I've heard it called 😄

Constant, vague allusions to shady friends etc. Things that people have to spend hours following up in order to counter. These things will give people just enough of a feeling of unease to prevent support of KJK in any way. I would really recommend those who are not sure to listen in to her You Tubes. She is very open about her views -- decide for yourself.

I don't feel the need to say I don't agree with her on everything (I don't) or that the chit chattery of her channel is irritating (at times). But I do listen in regularly because I think she is the most straightforward and powerful voice we have. I am so so grateful to her. No wonder those who fear her straightforwardness feel the need to slur her so frequently.

I'd be sorry to hear differently, but to the best of my knowledge it's all insinuation and guilt by association. Someone who knows someone, who knew someone, who might have known someone else, was seen at a SFW rally that anyone can attend. It makes about as much sense as calling her a tra because they always show up as well.

I believe you can contact Posie, even easier now she's back on twitter, and ask her yourself

So Stephen Y-L isn't involved?

@Redebs Good job it's not true then.

OMG I can't believe people are standing alongside Nazis just for the numbers.

Feminism is a political movement for the emancipation of women from patriarchy. Gender ideology is patriarchy writ large. In what sense is GC a separate movement? Or have you redefined the meaning of feminism as well?

Oh well I guess the reason is the real feminists slagging off Posie. Gives a lot of ammo to the TRAs. Which gives a lot of exposure and support to Posie.

HATA and WOLF are doing good things and getting Posie on board is a clever move.

The trashing of this woman (which happens on every single thread with her name on) is so clearly driven by jealousy and hatred. For some reason, TRAs think she's a weak spot they can use to cause division among us. But their campaigns only bring Posie's message to more women.

I doubt they'll ever figure out what they're doing wrong!

Hear hear LCinSpace.

We’re about to start another year of this shit and none of us are getting any younger, how long are we expected to wait for the perfect vehicle of change to arrive? Don’t we have to work with the tools we have? Meanwhile look at Scotland- land grabs are being made by this sinister men’s rights movement.

I’m not a historian but I’d imagine that all the historical struggles of the past involved strategic working and compromise and careful boundaries too otherwise nothing would have ever changed. That’s just how politics is, isn’t it? Messy democratic reality. The remainder is blind faith or tribalism or authoritarianism and fear and they don’t tend to work too well as agents of change for women.

Yes, feminists in HATA have held the line on reproductive rights.

HATA has had nothing to say about reproductive rights because it's a conscious coalition of women who know they have very different views on abortion and are prepared to set aside (uh-oh) those views to work together on this other, different issue.

If you think HATA were responsible for the failure of RvW then please show your workings.

And again, you have trashed other women's ways of doing politics without offering an alternative.

Which alternative US women's orgs should we support if WoLF and HATA are so terrible?

Miriam Ben-Shalom said it all five years ago.

It's hard to believe that this stupid distracting shit has been going on for so long.

The fall of roe v wade is a failure of the left. They had so many opportunities to make US women's right to abortion more secure than a flakey piece of case law but it just kind of slipped off the agenda every single time.

Maybe it was always worth more to left wing men as a carrot or stick to hold over women to secure their allegiance to left wing men's interests.

'Nice abortion rights you have there, shame if anything happened to them'

What will misogynist left wing men in the US do now their protection racket has been busted?

Why should US women support them now?

For anyone concerned about abortion rights in the UK I started a thread here:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4696173-abortion-rights-in-the-uk-are-they-at-risk

Please do contribute to this discussion.

@LangClegsInSpace
*I've been on the fence for years about WoLF and HATA but I'm now convinced that the only way to get anything done in the US is to engage with people across the political spectrum, including the religious right, because they have a lot of power in the US and the democrats have completely failed women on all fronts.

Both these orgs set very clear boundaries around their goals and collaborations. They've been going for quite a few years now (way longer than e.g. WPUK) and they have managed to hold their own lines on reproductive rights and LGB rights and all the other scaremongery issues, while forming effective strategic alliances on the threats of genderism.*

Kaeley Harms co-founded HATA “Hands Across the Aisle,” in 2016.
She said of herself in 2022:
I’m a pro-life Christian conservative who voted for Donald Trump twice.
www.christianpost.com/voices/dear-christian-conservative-men-stop-screwing-up-the-trans-issue.html

In 2022, Roe v. Wade is overturned and numerous States moved to de facto ban abortion with heartbeat bills.

If you think HATA is holding the line on reproductive rights in the US, well….it seems history has recently proven you wrong. I’d also would not characterise the very real reversal of womens’ reproductive rights in the US as a “scaremongery issue”

KJK has recently joined the advisory council for WoLF. Good for her, she cares about American women and girls. I think US and UK women can learn loads from each other.

Don't tell us about how terrible KJK is for doing this. Tell us instead about other women who are doing good work in the US and who are acceptable to you.

That bloody Jayne Egerton essay 🙄

I've been asking this woman for years which alternative US women's orgs we should support if WoLF and HATA are so terrible.

I never got an answer from her except 'see my essay', even before WPUK published it and it was still behind a paywall. She actually expected people to pay £4.50 just to read her non-answer. Because that essay was entirely negative, it was 'look at these terrible women, this is why they are terrible' with no constructive alternative suggestions for effectively working in the US.

What has Jayne Egerton done for women and girls in the US? Who even is she to tell them they are doing it wrong?

I've been on the fence for years about WoLF and HATA but I'm now convinced that the only way to get anything done in the US is to engage with people across the political spectrum, including the religious right, because they have a lot of power in the US and the democrats have completely failed women on all fronts.

Both these orgs set very clear boundaries around their goals and collaborations. They've been going for quite a few years now (way longer than e.g. WPUK) and they have managed to hold their own lines on reproductive rights and LGB rights and all the other scaremongery issues, while forming effective strategic alliances on the threats of genderism.

So I think they are deserving of some trust as grown up women doing grown up politics. I'm not interested in 'they're awful, don't align with them'. Show me other, 'purer' US women's orgs that are achieving anything in this area or get in the bin.

As Kate Graham says, 'We're not fooled, Jayne!'

Watch from 34:33

She's right about two other things:

Firstly, it is no longer possible to ignore how Jayne Egerton and friends think that right wing christians are so terrible we shouldn't even talk to them but right wing muslims are so beyond criticism that KJK must be permanently trashed for a few clumsily worded tweets from before anyone had heard of her.

I reserve the right to criticise all woman hating religions and all woman hating cultural practices. If something hurts women and girls then I am against it even if it is perpetrated by another oppressed group.

Secondly it is vanishingly unlikely that there are not infiltrators in this sudden, massive, new, wonderful women's movement whose purpose is to disrupt it. Why wouldn't there be when these infiltrators have always been placed in all our progressive movements, with these same aims? This is not paranoia this is experience. Listen to Helen Steel.

Shit stinks and we all know how it smells.

Yup. The Edgerton article is also another tiresome sleight of hand which uses terms such as "the right", "Christians", "conservatives" and "republicans" and implies they are all anti gay, white supremicist Christian racists. It is like implying all Labour party members are Stalinists who want to abolish private property and establish a one party state. She also has a bad case of Trump derangement syndrome. Right wing beliefs are represented as some insidious mind virus that unwitting concerned women have no immunity to. Only the priestly class of feminists can understand the conspiracy danger. It is worrying that this woman works for the BBC (according to Google).

I think this too

It's tricky as it's uncomfortable to share some views and goals with someone who shares other views with people you don't like.

On balance it's good to have other suggestions (WPUK) of people to fight for womens rights and safeguarding.

We need women from all affiliations and backgrounds to push back and Posie, whilst not someone I agree with on everything, I absolutely doing that. As a previous poster said, win the fight first then talk about the details.

I can hardly wait to see what real feminists make of her TERF Queen Christmas message, complete with tiara.

They just need to stop trashing her and do their own thing.

WPUK are good at what they do but it's not the same as what KJK does.

They run tightly controlled, ticketed events with a panel who speak and an audience who clap and ask questions of the panel (sometimes pre-vetted questions). They've done a great deal to raise awareness, especially in the early years of the push for self-ID, and their youtube channel holds an impressive archive of women's speeches.

KJK meanwhile provides a free platform for any woman who wants to speak. She sells t shirts, stickers etc. so that any woman who wants to can spread the message in a really easy way, not just within the labour party or TU but to everyone, everywhere they go.

Being in the audience at early events, both Venice's and WPUK was amazing! It was the first time I had seen these issues spoken about live and being surrounded by other women who got it, many of us meeting face to face for the first time, was exhilarating and powerful.

But many of us grew out of just being an audience member a while back. We need to be active now. We all have things to say. We all want to spread the message.

Sitting and clapping a panel, however wonderful the panel, is not on its own effective activism.

If you see WPUK as an alternative to SFW / LWS, then you probably see yourself as an audience member rather than an activist. Or perhaps as a panellist and you see other women as your audience.