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Redefinition of 'Woman'

110 replies

InterestingUsernameTBC · 18/12/2022 19:02

So this has been swirling round in my head for a bit and I thought I'd put it down here and see if anyone has any comments.

In order for women to accept a male as a woman they have to redefine what it is to be a woman in his image.

It seems to me that some women say, that's fine. I'm happy to accept your redefinition. That doesn't contradict my own identity as a woman. We're both women, you're a trans woman and I'm a cis woman.

And then there are others who say, I accept your redefinition of what a woman is but it doesn't fit with my identity as a woman so I must be non binary or a trans man.

And then there are women who say fuck off. I'm not redefining what it is to be a woman to suit any man. But how do these women hold onto their sense of self in a society that is seeking to redefine their identity and the language they use to describe it?

OP posts:
Wellies54 · 19/12/2022 08:50

We must be steadfast in using the word woman to mean woman ourselves. We should always use transwoman for transwomen. Never use the word 'cis'! ( Well, IW is welcome to it since it's meaningless!) The more people use the words correctly the stronger they are.

Catiette · 19/12/2022 07:44

I think in addition to the really thought-provoking answers above, there’s an internal versus external component here. Internal: how we perceive ourselves. External: how others see us. How an individual’s sense of identity evolves is surely a synthesis of these - the external isn’t irrelevant. It may, as PP have pointed out, become less influential as our sense of self crystallises through childhood and young adulthood, but that formative tension - of asserting your personhood in the world, from each and every conversation with another being, to responding to more explicit challenges to group identity - is surely a lifelong process. And usually, I imagine, a natural & healthy one. But where those external forces become oppressive, the dynamic must become more complex. And who can measure or describe that? Re: woman, I do sense a corrosive effect - a genuine sense of loss - in, for example, no longer being certain that a “woman’s” achievement - or crime! - is, indeed, a reference to the class to which I belong, something in which to take a unique kind of personal pride or interest. And this is happening. Widely. We’re losing the security of living within a wider context of shared public understanding of who and what we are, at, it sometimes feels like, precisely the moment we’d reached a new level of societal recognition: relatively young laws re. money & property; the birth of women’s sports; the gradual normalisation of female leaders in politics, business etc. All so new, all so valuable - & now, the media, public and legal records of these fruits of centuries of work are being undermined, blurred, lost, even. It feels hyperbolic to say so, but we know it isn’t. We see it happening around us. Each loss hurts. Its hard to imagine there isn’t some kind of intangible cumulative effect on personal & public scales.

ZombieMumEB · 19/12/2022 05:11

Transwomen are a subset of men.

Transmen are a subset of women.

Non-binary reject gender stereotypes in theory (but not in practice), whilst at the same time, push gender stereotypes onto others.

Jux · 19/12/2022 02:01

Apparently Chambers Dictionary has now got some bollocks about the word 'Woman' meaning someone who identifies as one. Now, I've never considered Chambers to be a real dictionary but the fact that it's still in existence means that some people take it seriously.

DameMaud · 19/12/2022 00:42

It's a thought provoking question Interesting (and consequently shaping up to be one of those interesting discussion threads)

I also appreciate Redtoothbrush's powerful-painful truth post.

Several things come up for me:

  • The understanding that has most made sense and fit for me, is that being a woman is a lifelong, developmental, embodied process. (Amy Sousa outlines this beautifully).

It's particularly powerful, as no man, at whatever stage he decides to 'identify' as a woman can experience and lay claim to this.

  • For me personally, I've discovered that I've never felt as strong an identification as a woman (and I've never defined myself as a feminist) as I have in recent years during this crisis.
The threat itself is what has paradoxically strengthened and defined that part of my sense of self. Also, through exposure to powerful self-owning women, that I might never otherwise had cause to encounter, I have not only found that growing in myself, but have also felt a new and growing belonging to women, as a collective identity. (This is interesting in light of toothbrush's post about isolation/loneliness)

-I am most definitely in your third group, and despite this feeling like it's been a bit of a journey, I think I was there at the very start of discovering what's happening. Instinctively. (Without knowing or needing any feminist theory)

-When we are developing our sense of self, it's both an embodied and psychological process of learning where we end and others begin- our boundaries. This is an ongoing process over years. The two year old saying 'No' and 'Mine' is part of that. The teenager rebelling and finding their own way is part of that. Women, as a group, defining our physical boundaries and saying 'No' and 'Mine' ' I am not you' is part defining our collective sense of self I think.

Healthy boundaries and healthy relationships come from having a maturity that comes from a strong sense of self. This means not crossing others boundaries, or needing to be defined by (validated by) others. These are the things, as we all can see, that those who advocate for gender identity are doing. It's psychologically unhealthy and we sense and feel that.

When faced with an individual who does these things (friend, partner, colleague), it's disturbing and can rock our own sense of self, and it takes alot of courage, strength, and usually support to stand our ground, hold our boundaries and hold onto ourselves. In fact, for many if us, the rough diamond of our sense of self is actually polished through surviving and pushing against relationships like these.

We are facing this now collectively, on a societal scale, and I think the same approach holds true. Our sense of self (individually, or as part of the class of woman), might feel destabilised, but my sense is that we are strengthening it through our fightback to what's happening; by saying 'No', 'Mine' and 'This is me- you are not me'.

ErrolTheDragon · 19/12/2022 00:39

And a circular definition.Hmm

ScrollingLeaves · 19/12/2022 00:19

The Cambridge dictionary shows ideological capture.

YankeeDad · 19/12/2022 00:16

RoseslnTheHospital · 18/12/2022 19:13

That wouldn't work, Tofu, as whatever the new word is would immediately become coveted by those wanted to force themselves into the definition of women. It's the group that the word is associated with, not the word itself.

It's happening already with women using female to try to talk about women. The word female is now cropping up being used by trans identifying males to describe themselves.

It is worse than "cropping up": the Cambridge dictionary has now changed the definition of "female" to include "trans female" in the examples for the definition of "female", which is referenced as an adjective pertaining to gender.
dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/female

Further down in the definition it is shown as an adjective pertaining to sex. But the first definition shown relates to gender, not sex. .

ScrollingLeaves · 19/12/2022 00:06

WomanhoodIsABirthright · Today 21:14
Why is the chromosome thing never brought into this?
Two x's = woman, end of

There was a very interesting Twitter thread by a scientist linked to a thread the other day. Maybe someone could find it. It explained that chromosomes are not the main thing that signify either of the two sexes.

Crocodiles, for example, are male and female, and females produce eggs and young, but they have no chromosomes. What matters are the relatively large gametes (female), and the relatively small gametes (male).

Grimchmas · 19/12/2022 00:04

I feel very strongly that I'm not a cis woman. It isn't an identity that I identify with - referring to me as my sex class (woman) will be fine, thanks. I watched a video where a woman and a trans man explained to me why I should not be offended to be called cis.

Imagine telling a trans person that it's not offensive to call them their sex, use sex based pronouns and to continue to use their 'deadname'.

ErrolTheDragon · 18/12/2022 23:46

WomanhoodIsABirthright · 18/12/2022 21:14

Why is the chromosome thing never brought into this?

Two x's = woman, end of.

Because there are a few, extremely rare DSDs (disorders of sex development) where the simple XX /XY doesn't apply. However, it's nothing whatever to do with being trans, and people with DSDs will be diagnosed and are still either a man or a woman.

ScrollingLeaves · 18/12/2022 23:43

I feel fury if I hear ‘Cis’ woman. Transwomen can call themselves non-cis men if they want but cis has nothing to do with women.

It is interesting that India Willoughby has said they are a cis woman

ScrollingLeaves · 18/12/2022 23:36

TofuonToast · Today 19:27
But what if a totally new word was used with upfront biological boundaries. Large gamates etc. strip it of any sociological nonsense upfront

I have been looking it up in dictionaries: ‘woman’ meant an adult female; and female absolutely was/is defined in terms of biological boundaries - using the words ‘begets young’ and relatively ‘large gametes’.

It was never defined sociologically as a first meaning. (2nd meanings included wife, lady.) That didn’t stop it being purloined by men and their allies to mean men who ‘feel’ they are a woman.

They simply scream and shout and say the only meaning in a word is the meaning you want it to have. Institutional capture backs them up.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 18/12/2022 23:15

justcallmebozo · 18/12/2022 22:45

@MrsOvertonsWindow

i'm not very good with the abbreviations here. So what is FOTTFSOFATFOSM? I got the first 7 letters, can't work out the rest of it.

It's an old mumsnet classic comment (being the site that allows women to swear 😃)
Fuck Off To The Far Side Of Fuck And Then Fuck Off Some More

ErrolTheDragon · 18/12/2022 23:10

What about using cis women as the term? I know we all hate it but it is the one term trans people accept they don't belong in.

Nope. India Willoughby (and maybe others) have said they're 'Cis women'.

I'm a woman. No male is. Period.

justcallmebozo · 18/12/2022 22:59

If the trans community are allowed to decide how to refer to me (eg cis-woman), then why can i not decide how to refer to them (eg men living as women)?

Surely it has to work both ways. It really annoys me that this is all so one-sided.

justcallmebozo · 18/12/2022 22:58

User77765 · 18/12/2022 22:49

They shouldn't - it was just a thought in response to earlier pps discussing different terms. Cis seems to be the only thing trans people understand.

Show quote history

ok, sorry @User77765 i misunderstood your view.

User77765 · 18/12/2022 22:49

justcallmebozo · 18/12/2022 22:48

@User77765

The point is this though. Why should the majority of women change the label that they've always had just because a small minority of men/women decide they should.

They shouldn't - it was just a thought in response to earlier pps discussing different terms. Cis seems to be the only thing trans people understand.

justcallmebozo · 18/12/2022 22:48

@User77765

The point is this though. Why should the majority of women change the label that they've always had just because a small minority of men/women decide they should.

User77765 · 18/12/2022 22:45

RoseslnTheHospital · 18/12/2022 19:13

That wouldn't work, Tofu, as whatever the new word is would immediately become coveted by those wanted to force themselves into the definition of women. It's the group that the word is associated with, not the word itself.

It's happening already with women using female to try to talk about women. The word female is now cropping up being used by trans identifying males to describe themselves.

What about using cis women as the term? I know we all hate it but it is the one term trans people accept they don't belong in.

justcallmebozo · 18/12/2022 22:45

@MrsOvertonsWindow

i'm not very good with the abbreviations here. So what is FOTTFSOFATFOSM? I got the first 7 letters, can't work out the rest of it.

Helleofabore · 18/12/2022 22:37

I was heartened today when I was out in a town centre today talking to passers by. The number of women and men that already knew and understood the impacts of the laws being changed and who were concerned. I only had one person say they disagreed.

And this was a mix of ages too. A young women initially told me she believed males could be women and should be treated like women. Except when I asked her about rape centres, she said no, not there. When I asked her about sport, she said, no not sport either. When I asked her about female prisons, she also said no males at all. She ended up walking away admitting that she needed to do more reading and more thinking.

I had two different occasions when young men I had chats with told me about males in women’s sports. They both mentioned the names of Thomas and Hubbard. One mentioned Bridges.

We KNOW it is a small but loud group in the population who support this ideological thinking. I saw that reaffirmed today.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 18/12/2022 22:17

Thus if you destroy the word women and therefore the concept of women, you isolate women from being a collective group. They can't gather. They can't share ideas. They can't create a sense of identify. And this is the purpose.

Thank you RTB - brilliant post.

The word woman is taken - has been for ever and is not up for negotiation. No man will ever gestate a child & give birth, or share the unique and at times painful aspects of being a woman. We can share humanity & personhood - but being a woman is a distinct biological category and experience.

Frankly they can all FOTTFSOFATFOSM.

Fairislefandango · 18/12/2022 22:09

Because if your sense of self includes the knowledge that you are a woman due to being an adult female human. And then it is decided that a woman can be male or female then what is a woman? What are you if there is no word for a female adult human?

You are still a woman. A small, albeit vociferous, group doesn't get to say that 'it is decided that a woman can be male or female'. Tbh I can't say that all of this has had the slightest effect on my sense of self, because it's all so obviously bollocks... as it were Wink