Page 7 | How feminists have let down Muslim women and girls

beastlyslumber · 2022-12-15T09:59:42+00:00

This is a brilliant conversation with Yasmine Mohammed, talking about how liberal feminism has betrayed women and girls, what the wearing of hijab really means for girls, how women are being enslaved and tortured by Sharia law. And why feminists need to start caring. https://open.spotify.com/episode/4yNPedvPGE2lZ4uPtYViot That's the spotify link. I'll link it on apple music as well: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/e208-yasmine-mohammed-discusses-how-western-liberals/id1437447846?i=1000587384528 Hopefully one of those links will work for you! ^Yasmine Mohammed, author of Unveiled: How Western Liberals Empower Radical Islam , shares her story of growing up in a fundamentalist Islamic home in Canada. At 13, when she tried to report the abuse she suffered at the hands of her step-father, she was told by a judge “you come from a different culture, and that’s how your family chooses to discipline you, so we just have to accept that.”^ ^And here lies the inherent contradiction in the way in which the West views fundamentalist Islam versus other fundamentalist religions, and turns a blind eye to the abuse and suffering of millions of girls and women. She and Bridget discuss how alienating that is, the message those girls receive is “we don’t care about you, you are ‘other.'”^ ^They cover the escalation of rape culture, sexual harassment, the problems with celebrating the hijab, the indoctrination of attitudes towards girls and women in Muslim culture, and being called Islamophobic for criticizing a tool and system of oppression. They bond over shared traumatic experiences and discuss their belief that if you can use your own trauma to help others, it has not happened in vain. If you only ever listen to one episode of Walk-Ins Welcome, this is the episode.^

Samjamm · 15/12/2022 20:37

@turbonerd

Sikh men and (less commonly) women wear turbans. They also wear a Kara.

Hindus wear a kautuka (the red thread worn on their wrist) and Hindu women wear a bindi.

Muslim men are required to have fist length beards.

Why are you singling out hijabi women?

It's very common for under 16s to choose to wear the hijab. I wore mine on and off until I was 18 as did my friends. My parents never forced me, it was my choice. It never has hindered me in my everyday life. How would you know unless you've worn one?

turbonerd · 15/12/2022 20:25

CleanTheChicken · 15/12/2022 19:13

The hijab, burkha and niqab are NOT problematic. It's an expression of faith and brings peace to most of us that wear it. Being forced to wear one however IS problematic. But at the same time, being forced to NOT wear one is also problemtic. Will the feminists who are on this thread standing up for the women who are forced to wear a hijab also stand up for the women in countries where the hijab and niqab are banned?

I won't be wasting two hours of my time listening to the woman who added a negative spin to a positive day by founding #NoHijabDay. I understand that she's had a tragic life and I'm sure she feels like her hatred is justified. But my love for my religion and its practices are also justified and I won't be patronised into thinking differently. Support her and women like her, but know that it's not so black and white as there are women like me who proudly where the hijab despite being sneered at, judged and even pitied by uninformed people.

I wondered if there are many other countries except France?
France have banned any and all religious symbols from being worn by people employed by the government afaik.

Covering the rest of the body is not a problem, it is the covering of the face.

But add to that if you are a child (under 16, for the sake of it) then religious coverings are not freely chosen simply because you are a child. Of course people must have freedom of religion (and freedom of no religion too), and children are raised within religions. But the issue raised here (as I understand it) is that some religious symbols are more intrusive into the children’s everyday life than others. The hijab is only for the girls. It singles them out. I can’t think of an equivalent for boys in any of the major religions.

TheBiologyStupid · 15/12/2022 20:16

All three Abrahmic (? Spelling) religions are rather about patrilinear heritage and not very women-friendly on the whole.

FWIW, some denominations in Judaism are matrilineal. Not that it necessarily makes them more women-friendly, of course: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrilineality_in_Judaism

Original poster

beastlyslumber · 15/12/2022 20:00

Yes @turbonerd I agree that hijab can be a choice but niqab and burka are always problematic whether forced or freely chosen.

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Original poster

beastlyslumber · 15/12/2022 19:58

I agree with this. Happy for adult women to make the choice for themselves, but not to make the choice for anyone else or to have the choice made for them.

There's a lot of discussion in the podcast about what the "choice" is like from YM's experience.

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turbonerd · 15/12/2022 19:57

I am going to qualify my post, as in the hijab is not problematic in itself IF it is a free choice to wear it.

The niqab and the burka are definitely problematic. The burka more so than the niqab, but both cover the face to such a degree that the wearer is un-identifiable.
We humans rely on facial features (+ voice) in order to recognise individuals.
In my opinion being forced to wear a face-covering veil is against our human needs to be recognised as an individual in society and thus against our human rights.

It is illegal (at least it was) to cover your face in public - certainly in banks for instance, and for good reason.
If the weather doesn’t demand it for protection (extreme heat or cold, strong winds etc) then wearing a veil to cover your face is completely at odds with participating in society.
Funnily enough it is usually requested in cultures and religions where women are very limited in how they can participate in society. That makes them problematic in my opinion.

Even if the women wearing them do so completely of their own volition it is at odds with how we interact in western cultures and societies. It covers your face and it muffles your voice, and makes you nigh on indistinguishable from any other person who wears the same.

pursuedbyablackdog · 15/12/2022 19:53

I was going to add this too. All three Abrahmic (? Spelling) religions are rather about patrilinear heritage and not very women-friendly on the whole. Reading the old testament it is rather fascinating how a whole Row of men «begat» the next generation of men. Women feature very rarely, and as we well know it is only fairly recently that women in Europe can enjoy economic and political freedom and independence on a large scale. It is not that long ago it was mandatory for women to cover their hair in church (and for decorum elsewhere too). But that aside: no, it is not «islamophobic» to point out very problematic aspects of the religion. The hijab, burka and niqab ARE problematic. Forced covering up IS problematic - especially when forced on children.Aside from everything else it causes severe vitamin D deficiency in the female population in countries with Sun almost every day of the year. Some women are perfectly happy to wear the hijab for spiritual reasons just like some women are perfectly happy to not be able to vote. However, if they do not extend the choice to those who do not want to wear the hijab, or to those who do want to be able to vote - then we are not talking about choice and freedom anymore. Are we? I want the choice and freedom. If others do not want the choice or freedom for themselves, crack on. But they cannot also take my choice and freedom away, to justify their own choice
^
Turbonerd Put so much better than I could, but this in bucket loads, it's about choice and freedoms.

Original poster

beastlyslumber · 15/12/2022 19:48

CleanTheChicken · 15/12/2022 19:46

When someone mentioned Islamophobia earlier I rolled my eyes. Not everything is Islamophobic and ofcourse these things should be discussed. But the more the OP salivates at the podcast and refuses to listen to differing views, I'm getting a very clear picture of what kind of person the OP is.

Yep, I'm just here salivating. You've nailed it. Are you always so devastatingly insightful or is it a special occasion?

OP posts:

Original poster

beastlyslumber · 15/12/2022 19:47

I'm not telling anyone to leave. I'm telling people to listen to the podcast and if they won't do that, they don't have anything to contribute to the discussion about the podcast. If you read the thread you will see I've asked many pp to listen to the podcast because the reason I posted the thread was specifically to discuss this specific podcast and the specific things that are specifically said on thi specific podcast. HTH.

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CleanTheChicken · 15/12/2022 19:46

When someone mentioned Islamophobia earlier I rolled my eyes. Not everything is Islamophobic and ofcourse these things should be discussed. But the more the OP salivates at the podcast and refuses to listen to differing views, I'm getting a very clear picture of what kind of person the OP is.

CleanTheChicken · 15/12/2022 19:43

Many others haven't listened to the podcast but have added their opinion (while agreeing with you). Will you be telling them to leave too?

Original poster

beastlyslumber · 15/12/2022 19:42

CleanTheChicken · 15/12/2022 19:39

I am listening to the discussion but it seems like you're not willing to listen to women whose opinion different from yours. You've only told two women to basically leave this discussion and both have been Muslim women. Why is that?

This thread is to discuss the podcast. You have said you refuse to listen to the podcast. Therefore you have nothing relevant to contribute to the thread.

OP posts:

CleanTheChicken · 15/12/2022 19:39

I am listening to the discussion but it seems like you're not willing to listen to women whose opinion different from yours. You've only told two women to basically leave this discussion and both have been Muslim women. Why is that?

Original poster

beastlyslumber · 15/12/2022 19:20

If you're not willing to listen to the discussion @CleanTheChicken then your comments are of no interest.

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EndlessTea · 15/12/2022 19:19

It is problematic if it normalises different standards of supposed ‘modesty’ for women and men. How many men wear the hijab, burkha or niqab to express their faith and bring them peace? Why is that?

dancingqueen123 · 15/12/2022 19:18

Thanks for posting op.

Grammarnut · 15/12/2022 19:15

Emmmie · 15/12/2022 12:01

OP are you saying that over a billion of Muslim women are oppressed and that we all hate wearing the hijab? Mind blowing! Let's listen to all muslim women, not only the ones you deem worthy because they are agreeing with your views! In fact, let's listen to and hear all women!!!!

Only those who wish to wear the hijab should wear it. A woman who does not has every right not to. There is nothing in the Koran that says anything except modest dress. The hijab is the construction of men, mainly insecure men, I think, and those who want to blame their own inadequacies (and indeed sins) on women.

CleanTheChicken · 15/12/2022 19:13

The hijab, burkha and niqab are NOT problematic. It's an expression of faith and brings peace to most of us that wear it. Being forced to wear one however IS problematic. But at the same time, being forced to NOT wear one is also problemtic. Will the feminists who are on this thread standing up for the women who are forced to wear a hijab also stand up for the women in countries where the hijab and niqab are banned?

I won't be wasting two hours of my time listening to the woman who added a negative spin to a positive day by founding #NoHijabDay. I understand that she's had a tragic life and I'm sure she feels like her hatred is justified. But my love for my religion and its practices are also justified and I won't be patronised into thinking differently. Support her and women like her, but know that it's not so black and white as there are women like me who proudly where the hijab despite being sneered at, judged and even pitied by uninformed people.

lightand · 15/12/2022 18:58

So many posters on here are going "but you cant speak for all mus lim women".
Soooo does not let feminists off the hook.
Excuses just dont wash.

lightand · 15/12/2022 18:56

Too right they have

turbonerd · 15/12/2022 18:54

RunLolaRun102 · 15/12/2022 18:20

It was always the norm for all Christian / Muslim and Jewish women to wear hijabs. And in the countries with the oldest Christian / Jewish traditions they still do.

Show quote history

I was going to add this too.
All three Abrahmic (? Spelling) religions are rather about patrilinear heritage and not very women-friendly on the whole.
Reading the old testament it is rather fascinating how a whole Row of men «begat» the next generation of men. Women feature very rarely, and as we well know it is only fairly recently that women in Europe can enjoy economic and political freedom and independence on a large scale.
It is not that long ago it was mandatory for women to cover their hair in church (and for decorum elsewhere too).

But that aside: no, it is not «islamophobic» to point out very problematic aspects of the religion.
The hijab, burka and niqab ARE problematic. Forced covering up IS problematic - especially when forced on children.
Aside from everything else it causes severe vitamin D deficiency in the female population in countries with Sun almost every day of the year.

Some women are perfectly happy to wear the hijab for spiritual reasons just like some women are perfectly happy to not be able to vote.
However, if they do not extend the choice to those who do not want to wear the hijab, or to those who do want to be able to vote - then we are not talking about choice and freedom anymore. Are we?

I want the choice and freedom. If others do not want the choice or freedom for themselves, crack on. But they cannot also take my choice and freedom away, to justify their own choice.

Original poster

beastlyslumber · 15/12/2022 18:43

I was so moved by what YM said about hijab, how it psychologically affected her. Also her explanations of what girls are told - do you want to be a good clean girl, or a dirty girl? Do you want to go to heaven or hell? The way it separates girls from their peers. The idea that it's not really a choice if you can't choose not to wear it.

I know I sound like a broken record, but please do listen to the discussion. It's very interesting. And while YM obviously can't speak for all Muslim women, her experience is valuable and she is part of a much bigger community of women asking people to listen and pay attention.

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RunLolaRun102 · 15/12/2022 18:20

Fladdermus · 15/12/2022 18:09

I learnt recently that women who wear hijabs are not all muslims or from muslim countries. I met a group a women a few months back who I assumed were muslim because they wore hijabs but recently found out that they are Catholics from a Christian African country and it's the norm there for women to wear hijabs too.

It was always the norm for all Christian / Muslim and Jewish women to wear hijabs. And in the countries with the oldest Christian / Jewish traditions they still do.

RunLolaRun102 · 15/12/2022 18:18

FOJN · 15/12/2022 13:26

Many of the women in the Islamic Republic of Iran would seem to agree with Jasmine. They are being killed, assaulted and jailed in their fight for freedom and equality and removing the hijab seems to be quite a potent symbol of their defiance.

Women, and more specifically feminists, have many conversations about whether our life choices are made freely or are informed by social, political, religious and economic pressures. This particular conversation just happens to be about the hijab and is lead by a Muslim woman. There will be a range of views whatever the subject under discussion.

Show quote history

The issue in Iran isn’t against hijab. Women are removing their hijabs in protest because the current regime is using ‘hijab / morality offences’ to punish and kill female radicals who come from families that don’t support the establishment. Iran has always punished hijab and moral offences harshly, but there are political motivations behind some of this reporting.

bellac11 · 15/12/2022 18:15

There isnt just one view on these matters though.