How feminists have let down Muslim women and girls

Why don't Muslim men feel the need to express their faith in the same way? And btw most Muslim women around the world don't wear a hijab, burkha etc. What's your opinion of those women? Why should only women cover up?

I hear you @Emmmie and @CleanTheChicken

I am disappointed that the organisation she set up for ex-Muslims seems to say very little about women and is focused on men (gay men). https://www.freeheartsfreeminds.com/ Fuck me, after what she’s been through, why not put women first? The spectre of Beryl.

I’m saying the notion of ‘modesty’ for women is old fashioned, backwards and intertwined with women’s oppression. Funnily enough, in the podcast they do touch on that - about the dualistic nature of ‘modesty’ and it’s stark opposite ‘immodesty’. How one is virtuous and deserves respect and the other is shameful, unclean and deserves to be treated as ‘asking for it’.

I’m about 45 minutes in atm and these women almost sound like mumsnetters.

@EndlessTea so what's the difference between you and a religious constitution?

You're saying women shouldn't wear a hijab or dress modestly, and Islam is saying they should.

If religion is backwards for women's rights, then so are you.

@NonnyMouse1337
'The true nature of any ideology is in how it treats its dissidents, and not necessarily those that comply with its rules and regulations.'

You've summed it up perfectly!

To be fair, I very rarely see either.

Is the bindi the one you glue on?

The tilak is the red dye right?

Did you see a tilak or a bindi?

Yes, it was so much more common when I was a kid though. I know that my daughter is friends with the one Hindu in her class, and she is always complaining about her religion and how she doesn’t believe in it. I wonder if Hinduism in the decline in the UK. Or maybe just London.

That's really interesting.

It's still women though.

Agreed LangClegsInSpace - you can’t really avoid that defensiveness in feminism. Obviously we all get benefits when we comply with patriarchy and get abrasiveness when we resist, so it’s easy to believe that we are freely choosing what works for us.

I think it's fine to criticise hijab just as it's fine to criticise western beauty practices or any other cultural practice from any other culture.

There will always be defensive responses because lots of women choose to participate in these practices and which of us does not like to think of herself as a free agent, making free choices?

But we all know none of our choices are made in a vacuum.

It's also fine to criticise religions and belief systems. All of them.

What horrified me most about this podcast was the family court judge telling her she had to put up with physical abuse because she was from a different culture and that's just how families in her culture disciplined their children.

You can’t have seen Hindu (wo)men with a tilak unless you’ve seen them in / around a temple or wedding / festival. Nobody wears a tilak everyday unless they are following strict religious practices.

What's wrong with normalising modesty?

There’s a lot wrong with it, imo. But I discussed it a lot in a different thread. Modesty is a patriarchal/religious thing and I am not comfortable with religious values becoming dominant over secular values in our society.

If you saw me, you’d think I was dressed modestly, but it is just practical. I don’t think someone is showing off and being immodest if they aren’t covered from neck to wrist to ankle. People can do whatever they feel is comfortable. I think a head covering is a good idea to avoid sun stroke though.

What's wrong with normalising modesty?

Someone can argue that you can dress modestly without wearing a hijab.

Would you claim that a non hijabi woman dressed in loose clothing that covers her skin is oppressed? Or has been forced to dress that way?

@turbonerd but why does it matter if a woman's (or anyone's) ears, chin, neck etc are covered? You're saying it isn't an issue for you when communicating with a hijabi woman, but I don't understand why it would be an issue for anyone. Their face is still visible so you can still decipher their facial expressions and so on.

If a hijabi woman claims that her scarf is preventing her from carrying out everyday activities, then she has the choice to remove it.

Men also must show modesty, but it isn't spoken about. They shouldn't wear skin tight nor transparent clothing that reveals areas that should be covered (above belly button to below the knees). They're also not supposed to cover their ankles. If you ever walk past a mosque during prayer time you'll see that men roll up their trousers before going in.

Perhaps the fist length beard is a regional thing. To be fair, my own husband doesn't have a fist length beard. But it is an Islamic requirement. As well as the fact that their hair must be one length (no short back and sides etc).

Nobody should be shamed for doing what they choose, but we really need to stop claiming that hijabi women are oppressed.

If a woman wearing hijab is oppressed it isn't because of her hijab. If someone is forcing her to wear a hijab, they are the ones at blame, not the hijab itself.

Sikh women also wear the bangle, I’ve seen Hindu men with the tilak. Sikhs aren’t meant to cut their hair, and the turban is a way of managing long hair. (It has been ages since I’ve seen a Hindu woman with a tilak. I wonder what happened).

The fist length beard, is pretty prescriptive, but at least it doesn’t carry with it notions of modesty.

I think what is problematic about it, is that in an area like the one where I live, at least half my kids school mates are Muslim, which means the old-fashioned notions of ‘modesty’ and ‘honour’ for women and girls, that are part and parcel of the head covering, are normalised. I think that is a backwards step for women’s rights.

Covering the rest of the body is not a problem, it is the covering of the face.

The burkini is banned on some French beaches: www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61883529

I did a quick Google and Islam has approx 1.97 billion followers whereas there are approx 30 million sikhs worldwide, so there is a big difference in impact on people I reckon.

@Samjamm
the podcast lady singled out the hijab. I have added my opinion on the forced wearing of it, particularly if it is forced on girls.

I suppose the turban is similar in that you must not show any hair? But as you say, it is not only for one sex though more common for men.

To me a kara, or a small crucifix on a chain, or a bindi is not a problem. It doesn’t obscure the face.
The hijab doesn’t obscure the face as such, but is covering the sides and under the chin. Not a problem for me when I communicate with women wearing a hijab. But -
Many girls and women say they feel that it does hinder them to wear the hijab. They feel singled out, mostly in contrast to the men and boys who are free to wear what they want.
In many families I have noticed that the women are fully covered and the men are in jeans and t-shirt. No fist-length beards either. But perhaps that is regional?

I have never been forced to wear any particular clothing or any religious symbol. That is, there were attempts by some religious men (christians as it happens) to shame me for what I wore in my teens, and to shame people fir dancing or going to the cinema too.
If girls are shamed for not wearing a hijab then that is the main issue.