How feminists have let down Muslim women and girls

I'm not well up on the various requirements of clothing in religions. But, i believe in freedom of religion and at the same time i believe in freedom from religion.

But. I'm not about to go around telling anyone what they should and shouldn't wear and i am not about to start telling a hijabi what to do.

I have a problem with pps assertion that millions of women are perfectly happy to wear a burka or niqab. I haven't ever heard any of them express an opinon outside of reports I've read about how disappointed many Afghani women are to be shoved back into them and their lack of freedoms generally. But again, I'm not about to encourage a wholesale invasion of a country to free the women (mostly because nobody would actually do that, and when they say they have done exactly that, they haven't)

People are opressed if they feel they are oppressed, and it is entirely possible to be as against enforced Hijab as much as it is possible to be against forbidding Hijab. In each case i will take my lead for the women asking for my support.

These boards are usually full of intelligent - informed - discussion.

As soon as we get into Islam (in any form) everybody is an expert. Although clearly, very clearly, without any expertise save a little bit of knowledge and a lot of opinion.

Muslim women are not a homogenous group. They don't speak the same language or share the same culture. They don't share the same family traditions or styles of dressing. Some hold double PhDs, some are illiterate. There's no "Muslim woman" nor are there "Muslim women".

It's really embarrassing.

It should be about choice. That's all.

I understand NewToWoo but isn’t the frustrating thing about fighting patriarchy (and the misogyny that oils it) that every harmful aspect of it that feminists criticise, is reframed as “what women prefer/choose/do to each other/are empowered by doing” and thrown back on us, as though all we are doing is harming other women and supporting patriarchy, by criticising it?

Also, in the podcast, the author explains that it is not intended in an accusing way, she writes from the perspective of being on the side of the intended audience.

Beautifully put @NonnyMouse1337 👌

hmm. Please don;t blame feminists for what is essentially a convenient and lazy form of Western misogyny. Maybe some liberal feminists have colluded, but it's not a trend led by or endorsed by the majority of feminists and it is feminists who fight heartily for better freedoms for women living under opporessive regimes.

I hate the practice of women blaming each other for minor infractions instead of going to the misogynistic, power-driven male centre of the problem.

The hijab, burkha and niqab are NOT problematic. It's an expression of faith and brings peace to most of us that wear it. Being forced to wear one however IS problematic. But at the same time, being forced to NOT wear one is also problemtic. Will the feminists who are on this thread standing up for the women who are forced to wear a hijab also stand up for the women in countries where the hijab and niqab are banned?

Not quite the something but in the space of a week I advocated for a woman who was scared to travel to classes because she was a hijab wearer and got spat on while on the train and I commiserated with another in a predominately Islamic nation because she was spat on for refusing to wear one.

It was always the norm for all Christian / Muslim and Jewish women to wear hijabs. And in the countries with the oldest Christian / Jewish traditions they still do.

Same origins as nums' habits.

thong wearing

I know you are just making a point (and dont actually find it funny) but that's not funny at all

No, it's not funny and I was making a point but the thing is this often isn't talked about. I think I came across it on MN for the first time and then looked it up and it's actually a thing. But we don't see thing wearing in the same way as hijab-wearing even though they cause actual injury and I think we are more apt to buy the choice narrative re thongs too.

Personally, I think that thongs are fucking hilarious, usually made of synthetics and apt to cause injury including chaffing, abscesses and clitoral injuries.

I know you are just making a point (and dont actually find it funny) but that's not funny at all 😳

I think it’s okay to be honest about your feelings, if something seems ridiculous and makes you want to laugh. It is ridiculous that someone, probably a bloke, has been so prescriptive about what underwear you should wear as part of your religion. Just, why? It’s completely insane that it is so uncomfortable. Just, why?

Obviously it would be horrible to go out on the street and point and laugh at people, but I think the excessive suppression of ridicule has been a bad thing. It has led to delusional men, looking and acting ridiculous, but if you don’t pretend they look normal, or even amazing, if you dare smirk - you are toast. It’s a suppression of freedom.

As for thongs, I don’t find them funny, they actually make me feel a bit sick.

To be fair, Mormon dress code rules are hilarious -Jesus breaks the lot! www.ecosia.org/images?q=mormon%20dress%20code%20sign#id=A5627A12F0FA6C856373ADEE11940D79FDA8B972

I can’t think of an equivalent for boys in any of the major religions.

There are a few as have been pointed out and some branches of Judaism demand quite a lot from boys and men in the clothing department - some of which looks quite uncomfortable.

The main issue for boys, though, is circumcision in some major religions. It is for girls too, of course, and the consequences are far worse, but it is more mainstream for boys and more socially accepted.

Is it mormonphobic of me that I thought their underwear was very funny? I may have snorted just a bit. 😂

Probably not, just rude. Maybe not for the private snorting but for telling us all about it as if you want to invite us in to what you think is a joke.

Personally, I think that thongs are fucking hilarious, usually made of synthetics and apt to cause injury including chaffing, abscesses and clitoral injuries.

Yes, there’s clearly a need, but you can tell that Beryl kept driving the WAMbulance into every damn planning meeting.

It’s like a reflex isn’t it? Women are almost incapable of putting ourselves first. It is so hard to stay focused on women’s needs in a meeting, “what about men?”, “oh yes, men do suffer too”, “I agree, let’s include men”, “yes I too know men have neglected needs”, “as do I, men, men, men, menny, men”, “so the home page of this website, what should it say on the first page?”, “well let’s not forget that some men suffer far more than women”, “hard agree, let’s prioritise men on the home page then”, ~ a fuzzy, warm feeling ensues as all the women planning and organising contemplate all the good they are going to do for men in the world ~.

The host of the podcast even complained about #MeToo going too far and implied that Western women are just whining now, compared to the oppression faced by women elsewhere in the world. Then closes off as a postscript crying about the drugged assault she suffered at nineteen, which changed the course of her life and led her into addiction, promiscuity and intimacy issues that have dogged her ever since.

To be honest, I also see the reflex “we need to prioritise marginalised women in ethnic minority communities”, whenever women’s issues are concerned as a similar deflection. It’s so hard to say “I am a woman and I am going to focus women’s needs- because being a woman is enough”.

They have to sleep in it as well

@EndlessTea is it polyester?
well, in that case I certainly agree it is oppressive for women. Re vaginal health - very important point.

I know. I added a link to show how Mormon underwear is oppressive for women because it is itchy, uncomfortable and unbreathable and causes UTIs, etc. So the blokes aren’t as badly affected because they don’t have vaginal health to think about.

Is it mormonphobic of me that I thought their underwear was very funny? I may have snorted just a bit. 😂
mind you, I am no fashion icon and at least they have the rule for both sexes.

It is not islamophobic to ask why the hijab, niqab and burka only applies to girls.

@DianaTroy I would also very much like to hear answers to these questions,

In the podcast Yasmine Mohammed keeps bringing up the cover of Sports Illustrated being fêted for featuring a woman in a hijab and burkini on the cover, saying that if they featured Mormon underwear on the cover, people would be “wtf?” and it is the fear of being called islamophobic, which means women and girls who are restricted in this way aren’t benefiting from liberal criticisms, instead they are othered.

Yes - I’d like to understand why men don’t also have to wear the hijab or niqab or other similar items. Can anyone please explain that to me? Why do these items only apply to women and girls?

Yes, I thought they had bans in France.
I meant the body covering is not problematic for facial recognition and communication.
it is still problematic related to the modesty issue.

I don’t think I agree with the tankini ban though. But I do think it is very important to talk about these clothes and religious rules on covering up. Especially as it most often seems to limit the freedom of choice for girls.

@Samjamm
with regards to communication the hijab is fine compared to the burka and niqab.
with regards to modesty all three are oppressive as such, because it is only the girls that must dress modestly.
it sexualises young girls and puts the responsibility of men’s sexuality on the girls.
It makes a split between the females who are «honourable and those who are «up for grabs», as discussed on another thread.
To put it like this:
I am not responsible for men unable to control their bodily urges simply because they glimpse a strand of my hair. If they cannot behave rational without the women around them being fully covered they should not be allowed out and about.

I thought about modesty clothing and in a way the bra can also have that function of ensuring modesty. Not only, I know many women need the support.
But I don’t need to wear a bra for support but must wear one so that my nipples are covered under tops/jumpers etc. The men in my classes would otherwise be completely distracted.
This has been tested out in other settings - and it does rile me. It has also been tested out by other women I know.
I don’t need or like to wear a bra, but I suppose the societal pressure is too big for me to not wear one. Especially at work where I teach males.