How feminists have let down Muslim women and girls

I think there is a spectrum to that modesty in Islam though

I mean they are talking about the hijab in the links i shared in this thread, but obviously that's very different to the burka or the niqab which I would see as more at the end of that 'extreme modesty' you mention

Whilst I support fully any women who felt forced to wear the hijab to not wear it, I also support the women who want to wear the hijab to wear it. Otherwise what happens to her body her choice.

If a woman chooses to put something on her head, be it a hat, a hood, a scarf, a gele or a wig, then they should be supported in their choice to wear the clothes they want to.

Otherwise how is feminism any different to the patriarchy in this respect? If men are standing there saying 'you must wear this' and feminists are standing there saying 'you must not wear this' it's two sides of the same coin - policing womens clothing

I do believe there is room to open up conversations around changing the way hijabs are viewed so that less (no) woman feel obliged to wear them through societal, religious, cultural and family pressure.

But unless you leave room for female Muslim voices to join the conversation, and to voice whether they do actually want to wear the hijab or not then all you are doing is pushing women out of feminism because they don't fit the western ideal.

The extreme 'modesty' of Islamic women is just the other side of the same coin to the USAs 'girls do porn' culture. Both belittle females to their outward physical appearance, rather than valuing the equal human beings that they are. Both should be fully rejected by actual feminists along with any affiliation to patriarchal religions. Females are the givers of life on this planet, if any deity should be worshipped it would be a female. Although personally I think the concept of deities is a male fantasy in and of itself, and the only spiritual god is the unity of all living things.

Some other views:

www.law.georgetown.edu/immigration-law-journal/blog/the-war-on-muslim-womens-bodies-a-critique-of-western-feminism/

www.google.com/amp/s/feminisminindia.com/2018/10/05/why-hijab-muslim-feminist/%3famp

www.google.com/amp/s/theconversation.com/amp/muslim-feminists-reclaim-the-hijab-to-fight-the-patriarchy-31126

What if I am both currently listening to the podcast and am also critical of the way people are speaking to Muslim women with a different view in this thread?

I am also in agreement with the poster who asks how feminists who oppose hijab plan to go about doing better by hijabis and helping people see how they are internalizing patriarchy and oppression if that discussion can only take place on the terms dictated by people like the OP without also being willing to be generous to opposing women in the discussion? What do we do if we think other women are wrong - banish them and speak to them dismissively or try to provide space for conversation?

Is it worth pointing out that nepeta literally said SHE hadn’t listened to the podcast and the OP and other posters praised her post, but then insist their responses to the Muslim women posting were solely to do with THEM not having listened to the podcast?

I enjoyed nepeta’s post and am glad she made it, but it is a rather glaring example, is it not, about the different treatment here?

Thanks for transcribing (I can be a bit of a wimp and need to be careful about what I expose myself to, for my sanity) I felt a bit nervous about listening myself.

Ilhan Omar is afraid of stoking Islamophobia, but when it comes to anti-Semitism....
www.timesofisrael.com/the-ilhan-omar-anti-semitism-controversy-explained/

That's exactly it @EndlessTea. I'm a medieval historian and I find it frustrating when the Crusades are used as an example of Christian violence but the origins of Islam are rarely mentioned. Mohammed was a war lord and the Alexander the Great/Napoleon comparison is an excellent one.

I know Wikipedia isn’t the greatest resource, but it is worth looking into the origins of Islam to understand why all the violence in the Quran.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Muslim_conquests

The early Muslim conquests or early Islamic conquests (Arabic: الْفُتُوحَاتُ الإسْلَامِيَّة, el-Fütûhât el-İslâmiyye),[4] also referred to as the Arab conquests,[5] were initiated in the 7th century by Muhammad, the main Islamic prophet. He established a new unified polity in Arabia that expanded rapidly under the Rashidun Caliphate and the Umayyad Caliphate, culminating in Islamic rule being established across three continents. According to Scottish historian James Buchan: "In speed and extent, the first Arab conquests were matched only by those of Alexander the Great, and they were more lasting."[6]

It would be the equivalent of a religion founded by Alexander the Great or Napoleon, or other belligerent conquerors. It’s a little absurd to suggest islam is a doctrine of peace. When I told my daughter that ‘Islam’ literally means ‘submit’ she was gobsmacked.

Interesting @EndlessTea. I have read the Quran and was shocked. It's like the Old Testament in its violence and it's clear that Islam is based on a deeply misogynistic and violent tribal religion. Many religions came from similar places but Islam stands out with the continual adherence to these ways. Married women were expected to cover their hair in medieval Christianity but fortunately this stopped hundreds of years ago, and even then Christian women were not hit for a wisp of hair showing, as happens in some Muslim countries today.

I'd love to see an honest discussion about the hijab, the burka, and other forms of covering. Plus things like a woman's testimony being worth less than a man's etc.

@beastlyslumber you won't regret it.

When I tried to have a conversation with someone I trusted about how I felt religious clothing was oppressive and sexist I was called a bigot, racist, xenophobic, ignorant etc etc. I've never felt comfortable trying to have the conversation again.

podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/honestly-with-bari-weiss/id1570872415?i=1000581903549

This podcast with Bari Weiss and the Iranian journalist Masih Alinejad is BRILLIANT. It really lays bare the hypocrisy of liberal feminists, especially in the US.

We are told, well that's nothing to do with Islam. And that we should learn about Islam and read the Qu'ran.

Yes, Yasmine Mohammed touches on this. Russel Brand apparently defended it, saying it was a religion of peace and was asked “have you read the Qu’ran”, to which he had to confess he hadn’t. YM talks about how repetitive and violent and gristly it is.

I was really pissed off when my kids were taken to a mosque for school (which I have no problem with) and the imam said “people say that Islam is a bad religion for women, but it is the best, most respectful religion towards women”. I told my kids that’s a lie and thought about complaining to the school.

I am a bit of a ‘belief’ nerd, quite fascinated, also, about the history of belief and how ideas spread. If you read the Old Testament, you think “woah - that’s a bit harsh”, and the tone of the New Testament is really different. Actually peaceful and forgiving I think the crux is: “He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.”

The interesting thing is about the relationship between the rise of Christianity and the fall of the Roman Empire, how they were intertwined because Christianity was a grassroots, non-centralised, anti-authoritarian religion, spread by lots of small groups, the message was enough by itself, so the Empire needed to adopt Christianity in order to revive itself from its death throes and carry any authority with the Europeans, it became the Catholic Church.

Islam came later, it wasn’t a grass roots religion, it was the ‘Arab conquests’ led by Mohammed in the seventh century. And I know we are told about how awful the crusaders were, but that was actually a counter-attack. So it wasn’t spread by ‘peace’ it was spread by war.

Furthermore, it reversed the “He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.” Christian message, back to Sharia, which is like the Old Testament.

@beastlyslumber Unfortunately MN usually does delete threads like this. Criticising Islam is seen as deeply disrespectful, much more so than criticising Christianity. I have worked and travelled in many Muslim countries and unfortunately the attitudes of many men are very anti feminist. I once had a discussion with a Muslim man in London, who I thought very lovely, but when I asked him where all the women were outside the Mosque on a Friday, he looked at me like I had two heads and said 'but they are in the home, raising the children, which is the most important job. They are not for the eyes of other men'. It was a real eye opener in to the fundamental attitude of a very kind, peaceful man.