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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sunday Times article by Jan Morris’s daughter

183 replies

BalooLikeYou · 10/12/2022 19:04

archive.ph/bupdZ

OP posts:
AlwaysTawnyOwl · 11/12/2022 11:53

What a horrible individual. What sort of parent cuts their daughter out of the Will - when she was bringing up 4 children on her own - and then gets her to regularly review the Will to rub her nose in it? Cruel.

DaughterOfPsychiatrist · 11/12/2022 11:48

Just popping this down, not to take the shine off Suki’s excellent writing and frank refusal to disappear inside Jan’s self written narrative, but to join some dots al la legendary MNetter R0wantrees…

Katy Tur, who is an American journalist/news anchor published her own childhood memoir earlier this year.

Katy’s parents were pioneers in helicopter journalism, her mother, Marika Gerrard and her father Bob Tur, documented fast paced and dangerous situations, Bob often hanging off the back of a helicopter.

Bob seems to me to be similar sort of chap to the Morris who documented the conquering of Everest.
Super macho men, but one step removed from the main adventurers, observers, but heroic, active, observers rather than passive ones. The documenting medium is different due, in part, to the decades in which these pioneering journalists made their names, but the parallels are striking.

Bob changed his name to Zoey in 2013.

theguardian.com/books/2022/jun/11/rough-draft-review-katy-turs-fascinating-and-flawed-story-of-news-and-family

look at the above article and see how far down you have to go before you get to the transition (spoiler: a long way!)

here’s a couple of extracts:

But according to Katy Tur, her father was unable to unlearn the worst lessons of his childhood and repeated the pattern of violence in his adult life, striking his wife, whipping Katy and her brother, punching holes in the living room walls.

Her father told her he had “decided to become a woman. It’s why I’ve been so angry.”

After the transition, Zoey Tur attacked Katy Tur for allegedly being transphobic. She insists she has always been supportive of such a courageous decision. But what she could not forgive was Zoey’s refusal to discuss or acknowledge the violence Bob Tur inflicted on his family, because the man who committed it no longer existed.

Tur writes: “It felt like my dad was playing a get-out-of-gender-free card I didn’t know existed … I was dumbfounded by the idea that a person could change their gender … and think that in the process the deeds of the past would no longer be relevant.”

It was “like a bank robber pleading not guilty on account of gender misalignment. But that’s how my father saw it.”

“Bob Tur is dead,” Zoey Tur said.

But, Katy Tur replied, “The stuff Bob Tur did isn’t dead.”

Katy is Tur’s only daughter, she has one brother.

Whilst googling the links for this I was horrified to see that, according to Google, Marika Gerrard’s main achievement is being ‘Zoey Tur’s ex wife’, rather than oooh, I dunno, her 17 years working for the LA Times and then cofounding a news channel, having sound recordist and production credits on three documentary films or being a singer songwriter with a Masters in Philosophy… plus Gerrard was married to Bob, not Zoey (they split TEN YEARS PRIOR to Bob’s ‘coming out’!)

Even ‘Katy Tur’s mother’ would surely be an improvement?

here’s short interview with Bob/Zoey about transition from 9 years ago (using both names as the article does):

www.kpcc.org/show/offramp/2013-09-04/zoey-101-chopper-pilot-bob-tur-becomes-zoey-tur-part-2

Short clip of Katy here:

Excellent review of/ reflection on Katy’s memoir Rough Draft on the Children of Transitioners website here:

childrenoftransitioners.org/2022/08/14/the-wrong-side-of-his-story-reviewing-rough-draft-by-katy-tur/

I’d bloody love a long podcast series with all these three women, Suki, Katy and the author of the CoT blog.
All of them are so interesting and insightful and have grown into fascinating, intellectually accomplished women despite having incredibly difficult fathers who tried to dull their brilliance (due to what I can only assume is envy and attempts to control due to their biological, immutable, female sex).

(apologies for typos and bad formatting, Mumsnet’s current tendency to reload and jettison a long post while I’m still writing it is driving me doolally and it’s not worth the risk of losing the whole thing for the sake of a few typos/autocucumbers)

(Also, proper love that Suki is ‘Morys’ not ‘Morris’)

Sunday Times article by Jan Morris’s daughter
Sunday Times article by Jan Morris’s daughter
daringdoris · 11/12/2022 11:40

Forgot to say that I agree that it's a brilliantly written article. Thank you for the share token.

Ch3wylemon · 11/12/2022 11:39

Oh look. Another abusive, narcissistic male who thinks everyone around them are extras in the film about their life.

Great post RedToothBrush.

daringdoris · 11/12/2022 11:39

I'm trying to remember what I know about his sons- I think they all initially moved to other countries, Twm lived in Brittany for a long time, another is in Canada or America, not sure about the third. Twm then moved back to Wales and 'kept the flame' (as the Telegraph article above puts it).
I've come across Twm a couple of times and have wondered what his relationship with Jan was like. I did look for Welsh language articles when JM died, and came across this one.
from BBC Cymru (it's in Welsh)
It was commissioned to be written about Jan Morris on International Wonen's Day, and Twm begins by writing this:

As I am her son, I was asked to write a piece about Jan Morris, the world famous author, for International Women's Day. Her contribution to the world since 1972 has been enormous, it's true, and there is no bigger fan than me!

But there is plenty of talk about Jan Morris, the world famous author at the moment, and the second volume of her reflection diary Thinking Again has just come off the press. And that or any of the pile of books she has written during her long career would hardly have happened if it wasn't for her partner, my mother, Elizabeth.

Elizabeth also deserves attention on Women's Day.

Slothtoes · 11/12/2022 11:07

Suki Morys is a very talented writer. She conveyed painful emotional truth with beautiful clarity and insight in that piece. I hope she and her family can recover from the personal impact of such an awful, abusive situation. Flowers

SerenityLoveLamb · 11/12/2022 10:45

ValerieDoonican · 10/12/2022 22:25

"What did she want to be? I believe she wanted to be someone totally different from anyone else, a woman who was the centre of attention because of her difference. She was no ordinary woman, as she believed the rest of us were. She was always talked about, always put on some pedestal. Her ego was massive, with people constantly rubbing it. She was a woman who enjoyed being in a man’s world because she stood out." (my underlining)

ouch!

This really resonated with me.

This makes so much sense of all the Dylan Mulvanys, the TW EDI speakers who get to be the guests on IWD, the Channel 4 penis pianist and their revolting song, the Lia Thomases, Emily Bridges, the India Willoughby's ...

It's all about being a woman but not like those muted, meek and actual women....

ArabellaScott · 11/12/2022 10:40

I think it's safe to say that Suki now has a whole band of women, at least, behind her who see.

Yes. I'm angry on her behalf. I hope she is able to move on, and I hope sharing her story helps.

Abhannmor · 11/12/2022 10:14

@Allthegoodnamesarechosen I remember the AA story well , if that is the person. Quite a cause celebre at the time. We thought people could actually change sex back then , bizarrely. Part of that whole ' anything the boring old straights don't like must be good ' sentiment.

Helleofabore · 11/12/2022 10:11

loislovesstewie

Dont forget Elizabeth’s family would have been an important attraction too. Even just the name of there was no money involved.

Helleofabore · 11/12/2022 10:09

I wonder if anyone knows why the children have the name Morys and if Morris was a nom de plume or whether this was part of the fantasy of becoming fully Welsh for Morris.

loislovesstewie · 11/12/2022 09:52

Is it any surprise that he married a woman who felt that marriage was for life, no matter what? You bet your life is wasn't, he knew what he was doing, marry a compliant woman, not let her think for herself and gaslight her.

TheirEminence · 11/12/2022 09:48

Brilliant post by RedToothbrush, and would be intrigued to hear about the son’s reaction.

MN are not as ban-happy as they used to be, probably because the evidence that we really do have to name male abuses of power is just becoming overwhelming.

TinselAngel · 11/12/2022 09:39

Copying over what I wrote on Twitter:

The most notable thing about the article by Jan Morris’s daughter is that anybody’s surprised by the neglect and emotional abuse. Newsflash:it’s still there even if the perpetrator is clever or is one of your social class. We’ve been telling our stories. Why haven’t you listened?

The assumption that a wife or a child who is silent about this, was somehow happy with it, is a convenient way for people to cop out of dealing with what we go through.

And to cop out of confronting the fact that even in their social class, or their profession, or in their political tribe, the abusive dynamics of this remain the same.

It’s also a way that people reinforce their belief that it couldn’t happen to them. The stunning and brave ones that they know or relate to, aren’t like the ones who abused us muggles, they could never be taken in.

Whilst the voices of trans widows and Children Of Transitioners are still bullied into silence, interpreting that silence as support and satisfaction, flies in the face of all compassion and common sense.

Will the prominent feminist writers who were fans of Morris acknowledge any of this now? I doubt it.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 11/12/2022 09:36

Thanks for sharing this. Poor kids. I remember reading before that Jan Morris's wife was (is? still alive?) deeply religious and believed that marriage was for life. Even though she and Morris had to divorce because once Morris was officially classified as a woman it became a same-sex marriage, which was illegal at the time, she still regarded herself as his wife and they re-married when same-sex marriage became possible. I see from a quick Google that the press has swallowed whole the idea that this is a moving love story. I don't see it that way at all. I see a woman brainwashed into believing that her needs and wants, and sadly also those of her children, were less important than her husband's, even though her husband's behaviour and demands were not just unreasonable but toxic.

Hepwo · 11/12/2022 09:29

Six schools for no reason.
Morris made a hobby of researching and visiting girls schools?
Was this a part of the fantasising?
Nauseating.

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 11/12/2022 09:26

I remember a thread on here which asked when people first doubted the ‘TW be kind’ narrative. I knew one of Morris’ sons at University, and I posted my experience (lived experience?) of his reaction to the publishing of Conundrum. Suffice it to say that it was not positive.

My post was deleted. Apparently it wasn’t acceptable, although it was neither rude nor untruthful. Oh well, it seems like history has caught up.

PS I had a bit in it about another famous person called after a month of Year, whom I knew personally. Maybe that didn’t fit the narrative.

Abhannmor · 11/12/2022 09:16

@RedToothBrush Yes. Very well said.

determinedtomakethiswork · 11/12/2022 09:10

@RedToothBrush brilliant post.

Igmum · 11/12/2022 09:03

Thanks for sharing OP. Sadly not surprising. Hopefully the MSM will get better at highlighting the effect transition has on the wider family. The current narrative of everyone being happy and accepting is a comfortable self-serving fantasy for the transitioners.

RedToothBrush · 11/12/2022 08:45

Suki is the first.

The first voice of the children to speak at national level to the respected British Press say how a transitioned father emotionally abused her.

Let's stress the point about emotional abuse.

She was not allowed to call her father 'Daddy' anymore. She was told she was a substitute for a fantasy of another daughter. Her mother was expected to comply and do all the emotional labour as a mother knowing her place whilst fantasy land 'mother' played dress up, had a wonderful career and was lauded for being stunning and brave. Against all the stereotypes of the time. Or more to the point, in line with them albeit in a dress.

Jan saw women as lesser. And had no respect for wife or daughter and treated them according as support humans to the narrative of the fantasy. They were emotional punching bags to satisfy Jan's ego. Suki could not be allowed to be given the chance to achieve and potentially outshine Jan. There is no room for that. She must learn to know her place. The women were still expected to have old fashioned women's roles of cleaning and caring and nothing more.

And notably the sons were sent away. Their maleness was a reminder of the past so could not be seen by Jan, but ego still dictates that they must be successful because sons are reflective of genetic prowess and parenting. Daughters can be just married off of course. The sons aren't a threat to the fantasy of woman costume in the same way. They are instead an extension of the male ego itself in a different way.

When Jan wrote about family, the kids were props. Extras to the fantasy and the ego. Bit parts to the narcissists narrative that didn't exist in real life.

Suki is the first.

She won't be the last. And all these stories will be variations of the same theme.

The stunning and brave victim of society who has the lowest possible status yet somehow dominates and dictates and controls the lives of their family like the stereotypical tyrannical father who must be obeyed, never questioned and be worshipped by all around.

Absolutely no surprise from me. Its text book.

ilikethatname · 11/12/2022 08:18

Never heard of Jan Norris but what a bastard… sounds very cruel. Fortunate that Suki had a lovely mum. Has she written a book?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/12/2022 08:15

I am shocked, shocked to learn that Morris was a selfish, narcissistic fantasist with deeply sexist views.

I know, what a truly surprising development.

CousinKrispy · 11/12/2022 08:04

Thank you for sharing this.

aweegc · 11/12/2022 07:33

MoltenLasagne · 11/12/2022 07:30

This was from a scathing review of Morris' book earlier in the year:

Her second son, Henry, chose to go and live abroad. Asked about Morris after her death, he said: “We were introduced, but we never actually got to know each other."

I thought that was a fabulous quote from JM's son. Although also desperately sad.