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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sexual choking is now so common that many young people don’t think it even requires consent. That’s a problem

62 replies

IwantToRetire · 09/12/2022 15:27

" ... It made me sad to think about the amount of girls who would have just “gone along with it” in that moment – including myself a few years ago. I would have known myself well enough to know that being choked wasn’t something that sexually turned me on, however I don’t know if I would have been able to distinguish between enjoying a sexual encounter because the man I was with was enjoying it, or because I truly enjoyed it myself.

I worry about how many women are yet to make this distinction, and implore you to consider where the true source of your consent lies, because if it is with the desire to satisfy men who want to strangle you, it may be wrongly placed. ... "

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/dec/08/sexual-choking-is-now-so-common-that-many-young-people-dont-think-it-even-requires-consent-thats-a-problem

Not saying this is the best article ever about this increasing violence inspired by pornograpy, and suspect the Guardian only published it because the writer is one of the BBC's 100 women.

But on the other hand this cant be said to often enough, and if it reaches one young woman, or in fact any woman, then that's good.

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Sazzasez · 15/12/2022 05:09

An ex I’d stayed on good terms with told me he’d split up with his next gf because she asked him to strangle her during sex. It scared the poop out of him & he declined.

Sazzasez · 15/12/2022 05:08

Thank you @thedankness - I think that was one of the articles I had in mind.

Ofcourseshecan · 15/12/2022 00:26

I had a lot of sexual partners in the 1970s and I never met or heard of or read of any man wanting to choke a woman during normal sex. Some of my friends and I had been sexually assaulted — a different thing. None of us had heard of choking as part of consensual sex.

How depressing, and unbelievable, that misogynist violence has now become ‘normal’.

AsTreesWalking · 14/12/2022 21:28

Kucingsparkles · 14/12/2022 20:30

I agree. I get the impression that "sex positive" means pretending, or convincing yourself, that you're totally fine with any kind of weird or nasty shit being done to you, because you think the social death of being labelled "prudish" or "vanilla" or "kink-shaming" or "bigoted" is somehow worse.

that's it, exactly, Kucingsparkles, anything less positive is hard to imagine. Whatever happened to happy pleasure?

thedankness · 14/12/2022 20:30

Sazzasez · 14/12/2022 13:19

Didn’t we (as a culture) start having a conversation about consent? A few years back?

i mean explicit consent for everything?

i remember it was ridiculed a bit.

But there were apparently policies in universities & all.

What happened?

www.almendron.com/tribuna/consent-is-not-enough-we-need-a-new-sexual-ethic/

This topic reminds me of this fantastic article I read in the Washington Post about how consent is the bare minimum and simply redefining consent to be "enthusiastic" is not enough. It's quite long so I'll post some excerpts:

"More clarifications of consent — or ever-more-technical breakdowns of its different forms — won’t rebalance power differentials, explain intimacy or teach us how to care. Making the standard of consent our sole criterion for good sex punts on the question of how to conduct a relationship that affirms our fundamental personhood and human dignity."

"Setting consent as the highest bar for any encounter effectively takes a pass on the harder questions: whether that consent was fairly obtained; whether it can ever fully convey what our partners really, ultimately want; whether we should be doing what we’ve gotten consent to do."

"Early in the #MeToo movement, many commenters argued that women should simply get better at saying no, at withholding their consent and exiting uncomfortable situations. There’s some truth to that. But it also felt like yet another burden placed on women: to be gatekeepers, whose comfort and safety were predicated on having the right level of self-confidence and self-possession even in their most vulnerable moments. What about those of us who are not always perfectly self-assured?"

"And making the issue “being firm about consent” sidesteps a critical question about what our standards should be. There are some sexual practices — Kaitlin’s surprise choking encounter among them — that eroticize dehumanization and degradation, ones for which the issue should not be whether they are consented to but whether they’re ethically valid at all.

"Instead, “between two consenting adults” has become a stock phrase, a conversational yield sign indicating that whatever is detailed next might raise eyebrows but remains beyond critique. This obscures the fact that not all sex is the same. Some things are worse than others. Yet the bias toward acceptance makes it difficult to say so, even when something feels obviously wrong.

"And when we do object to a particular act or practice, there isn’t language to do so. Since we have made it effectively impossible for anything apart from nonconsent to be wrong, we end up framing issues in that prevailing standard — the consent given wasn’t the right kind, we say: It wasn’t verbally affirmative or visibly enthusiastic. There’s no clear way to talk about the underlying problems of sexual acts agreed to in order to “be polite”, to please a pushy partner or to avoid something worse."

"There are many situations in which a partner might consent to sex — affirmatively, even enthusiastically — but in which sex would still be ethically wrong. In general, “willing the good of the other” is most often realized in restraint — in inaction rather than action. This involves a certain level of maturity and self-knowledge on all our parts: an understanding that if we aren’t able to manage this level of consideration — in the moment or more broadly — we probably shouldn’t be having sex. And, yes, it might lead to less casual sex, not more."

The whole article basically makes the case for love, and it's so deeply sad to me that in a generation love as a concept in intimacy is virtually obliterated. Porn is robbing us of our humanity - it has to go.

Kucingsparkles · 14/12/2022 20:30

AsTreesWalking · 14/12/2022 20:14

This is so sad. I've had a very enjoyable sex life,and absolutely never done anything I didn't want to do. That's what I call sex positive .I'm not sure it's what younger women mean by that term though.

I agree. I get the impression that "sex positive" means pretending, or convincing yourself, that you're totally fine with any kind of weird or nasty shit being done to you, because you think the social death of being labelled "prudish" or "vanilla" or "kink-shaming" or "bigoted" is somehow worse.

AsTreesWalking · 14/12/2022 20:14

This is so sad. I've had a very enjoyable sex life,and absolutely never done anything I didn't want to do. That's what I call sex positive .I'm not sure it's what younger women mean by that term though.

IwantToRetire · 14/12/2022 20:06

I think long before transactivism which has been hijacked by MRAs, the 60s social revolution of more freedom lead not to equality but the creation of Playboy etc. (did anyone watch that documentary) and other such "sexual freedoms". These freedoms were all about women submitting to what men wanted.

And it is worth remembering that 70s WLM came about as much from women sickened by alternative culture as any university or equal rights theoretical contribution.

So that's 50 odd years ago, and it is only now that women are being listened to about what really happened at the Playboy Mansion.

That's 50 years in which "liberals" have campaigned against censorship. But what has that given us, porn in every corner shop, on tv and now a fashion style for some young women.

And because it has been unchecked it has become more extreme but presented as being normal.

So is it any wonder that young men have absorbed the idea that women like being abused.

And just as MRAs hijacked the sexual freedom movement they have now hijacked the "subversive" freedoms of queer politics, including trans activism.

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SapphireSeptember · 14/12/2022 19:49

This is all so depressing. I've dated men around my own age who are disgusting creatures who get off on all sorts, because they're porn soaked and think it's normal, and then try (and have succeeded) in getting me to agree to it. (Last one didn't, my boundaries came down hard on him, so he called me hostile. He got blocked after he phoned me last month while having a wank. 🤢 Wasn't impressed, to put it mildly.) One of the guys I was with was very in to strangling me and once did it till I nearly passed out, and reading threads on here about the damage that can do is very scary.

Meanwhile I'm dating an older man who doesn't do anything weird, doesn't watch porn or obsess over glamour models or use prostitutes. There must be men my own age like that, but I seem to attract the pervs. 😭

MrsOvertonsWindow · 14/12/2022 13:35

Sazzasez · 14/12/2022 13:19

Didn’t we (as a culture) start having a conversation about consent? A few years back?

i mean explicit consent for everything?

i remember it was ridiculed a bit.

But there were apparently policies in universities & all.

What happened?

Trans activism happened. An ideology that demands that individuals have no right to consent and that women / girls must accept the presence of born males anywhere and especially if they're vulnerable, undressed, sleeping in a hospital ward or prison cell. Apparently women refusing to be undressed in the presence of any random man is akin to racism Confused
It's a small step to insisting that violence against women doesn't exist if the man calls it a sexual act.

Sazzasez · 14/12/2022 13:19

Didn’t we (as a culture) start having a conversation about consent? A few years back?

i mean explicit consent for everything?

i remember it was ridiculed a bit.

But there were apparently policies in universities & all.

What happened?

Greenfairydust · 14/12/2022 10:25

The negative influence of porn yet again.

It baffles me that so many people still try to pretend that the fact that so much of porn these days displays violent and degrading acts towards women has no impact on the way men expect to have sex.

it saddens me that so many women are putting up with this rubbish in the name of not being seen as ''prudes''.

Porn and dodgy online dating practices seem to have benefited men rather than women and set feminism back decades.

ohthehorrorthehorror · 14/12/2022 09:33

I was really shocked to see photos of a student Halloween event at my daughter's university, and one girl (not a friend of my daughter, just a random person) had the imprint of a livid bruise from hand/fingers on her neck in makeup and was proudly showing it off for photos. I don't know the background to choosing such a "costume", but the image horrified me. I immediately thought of sexual choking.

Kucingsparkles · 14/12/2022 09:11

Same, I'm glad to have all the faults of being "old' and "nearly extinct" with my anti-porn, sex-work-is-exploitation, kinks-are-private, humans-are-sexually-dimorphic and sexual intercourse is naturally enjoyable without violence/strangulation/beating/gimp suits/dog outfits.

I wouldn't want to be a young person in this toxically "everything goes or you're a frigid bigot" environment.

Musomama1 · 14/12/2022 08:13

And how many young girls will go along with it because they don't want to 'boring' or 'vanilla'? Or they want to please the guy they fancy?

Glad to be a dull married when I read this and no intention of robbing the cradle with these porn addled youngsters.

Bring back the days of a dodgy VHS in a paper bag.

Baobuns · 14/12/2022 06:26

Years ago I remember sleeping with someone from my university course. Out of nowhere, he slapped me during the middle of it. :/ Without saying a word. However back then I didn't have enough self esteem to challenge it.

WhatIsWomsn · 14/12/2022 06:14

I do enjoy this (amongst other kinks) but when I first explored this 15 years ago I had to meet people on a specialist fetish website. Now you can definitely find people on normal dating websites/apps. I've never met anyone who has tried this where it hasn't been explicitly discussed before they have done it. Not sure if that's just luck (I enjoy this, but I definitely would not enjoy it without consent!) When I do want to do this, I'm very explicit about my parameters (it is dangerous, but there are degrees).

I don't think most people know you can't actually consent to anything beyond common assault (consent is not a defence to ABH or GBH, so anything more than 'transient and trifling', unless for sport or medical treatment) so I don't think there should be any "consensual sex" defence to strangulation. It takes more than slight pressure on the neck for a short period. Anyone claiming they didn't realise the person was physically in distress is lying.

P.S. I've never watched porn so that's not the cause of my interest

EdgeOfACoin · 14/12/2022 05:23

TheMarzipanDildo · 11/12/2022 21:15

Out of the 7 one night stands I have had with men, 5 of them went to choke me. Why the fuck do they think it’s a good idea?

(I’m 23 for context)

This is so sad.

Whyisegg · 13/12/2022 22:05

NO ONE is killed by 'sex gone wrong". The very idea this is possible is abhorrent. Death by strangulation requires an enormous amount of strength and takes several minutes. The victim would struggle, turn blue, possibly void their bowels - no one could reasonably think it was an accident. What porn does is reinforce the collective belief that 'rough sex' is not only desirable but that lust can easily tip over into violence, unconsciously. This is sexism writ large - men are always victims, women are always to blame.

IwantToRetire · 13/12/2022 15:41

Have you heard of Gail Dines she has been an active feminist for some time. Originally from the UK but now in the US.

She set up an organisation called Culture Reframed specifically to help parents talk to children about porn.

In case you want to have a look the link is www.culturereframed.org/

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vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 13/12/2022 02:12

I have no idea how to keep my early 20s sons from landing up hurting some woman.

OI talking to them about this, but who knows what they get up to or what porn they watch. I am just hoping that talking is enough.

IwantToRetire · 12/12/2022 23:58

More than one in five (22 per cent) boys are looking for information about sex through pornography, a new report has found.

According to SafeLives, a UK charity working to put an end to domestic abuse, relationships and sex education (RSE) is “falling seriously short” of what young people need despite the curriculum receiving its first update in 20 years in 2019.

Meanwhile, other shortages came by way of abusive relationships, with just 46 per cent of students saying they feel confident about who to talk to if they know someone who is experiencing abuse.

Additionally, only 24 per cent of those surveyed recall being taught about coercive control in RSE.

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/love-sex/porn-boys-sex-violence-against-women-b2243665.html

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Bard6817 · 11/12/2022 21:29

I can’t imagine anyone liking strangulation, either m or f, but then again, even though i have varied appetites and am most definately not vanilla, i was a bit shocked when a girl i was being intimate with asked me to hit her.

Im 6’2”, built and if i’d hit her, i could have killed her with a single blow… As is it, im a child of a DV marriage, and can’t abide men hitting women….

We never got intimate again.

Maybe there are women out there that enjoy it, but i do have to question the character of the guys that enjoy it.

TheMarzipanDildo · 11/12/2022 21:15

Out of the 7 one night stands I have had with men, 5 of them went to choke me. Why the fuck do they think it’s a good idea?

(I’m 23 for context)

IwantToRetire · 11/12/2022 19:50

From an earlier post (by me!) "non fatal strangulation" was recognised as an act of domestic violence. www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/non-fatal-strangulation-or-non-fatal-suffocation

But the problem is many people, and especially young men, have been influenced by porn(*) and it is their sex "education". And so many young women accept that this is what should happen and quite likely think they dont like sex but go along with it as it is "required" of them.

How many young couples would think we are in a relationship that is characterised as being domestic violence.

This makes you realise how superficial the gains have been society wide, in terms of women refusing to accept male violence and coercion.

(*) Does anyone remember the two women singers who made video that caused a lot of upset because of that they were depicting. Later on when one of them wrote about it she said in a straightforward way that she was influenced by the porn she saw all around her at home when growing up.

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