Helen Joyce & Julie Bindel: Should TERFs unite with the Right?

It's great to see a good faith debate on this at last.

My impression is that JB's nose has been put out of joint, that she has taken certain things that KJK has said very personally. There was an air of 'I didn't get where I am today ...' about her arguments. And while I admire her work tremendously, the particular examples she used were both failures.

She talked about the fight against pornography and how she was not prepared to join forces with the religious right against it because they wanted to ban it for different reasons. That's great for JB's peace of mind, and I am very grateful for her clear analysis of the sex industry. But porn is worse than ever, so was that a successful strategy or not?

She talked about the grooming gangs and what happened, and she has done some really excellent work to expose what was going on, but ultimately, the narrative would not have been very different if someone else had done that work. It just needed exposing. There was a race angle, the police wanted to avoid a race row, the far right latched on and made hay. JB didn't manage to prevent that, I don't think anyone else could have prevented it either.

My impression of HJ is that she is first and foremost a pragmatist and she strives not to take things personally. I agree with her that universal human rights come first.

My politics are more aligned with JB but I think HJ has the best way forward.

Great debate, I do agree with Bindel on some things and Joyce on others. It's a complex situation and very much always around the context. Agree with Helen it's less of a left right situation and more of an institutional issue. I can also see why Bindel wants to maintain boundaries.,

@ILikeDungs I haven’t watched this video of KJK but I agree with her. I absolutely hate the fact that a few women raise their voices and they get shamed for doing so. I am sick of women being held to standards that men are not. Women are always expected to be moral, polite, reasonable and not hurt anyone’s feelings - in other words, put everyone’s needs before our own. So even when they are telling us that we don’t even exist as a material reality women still are supposed to object in a politically correct way.

Well FUCK THAT.

It wasn't an invitation type event. I'd love to see what stopping people filming at a public open air event looks like.

Alf up a tree has a 45 min video on YouTube showing exactly what happened. If I recall correctly KJK has an interaction of mere seconds with a woman who was later thought to be with HoO but other than that she didn't speak to them at all and there was nothing to identify who they were filming on behalf of.

They peacefully filmed and left, pure evil.

Sophie Corcoran said Hearts of Oak were not invited but were there (Brighton), they asked to film, Posie said ok.

mobile.twitter.com/sophielouisecc/status/1598766713042046993

Unite?

Even the title of the debate suggest agreeing on one issue is the same as being united. TERF's and the right agree on women's sex based rights, and oppose irreversible treatment for gender questioning children. We approach the issue from different perspectives and I'm not even sure that there is agreement on desirable solutions. Just because the right agree with me on one thing it doesn't mean we're united.

The left, which includes TRA's and Julie Bindle, like to label and put people in boxes for the purposes of silencing and shaming. I no longer care how such blinkered people refer to me. If they can't debate the "real" issue in good faith rather than trying to manufacture a good vs evil scenario then they are not worthy of my time and attention.

The real issue is that people like Julie still think women should support the left even though they are crapping on women from a great height and the biggest loser's will be the most vulnerable women. The right are barely any better but are holding the line on legislative change which buys us time. Yes, it's crumbs but rather that than shit sandwich.

That's a wiki article, that references a Vice article. But yes, there's a picture in the Vice article that seems to show Robinson on a video screen at the launch. (So he seems to have been there virtually). It's quite possible he's involved - still seems slightly vague, tbh.

Fun fact: Did you know the founder of Vice is a Proud Boy?

www.vanityfair.com/news/2021/06/the-secret-history-of-gavin-mcinnes

And afair, HoO isn't led by Tommy Robinson at all.

There's an association - he was certainly at a launch event, but so were a bunch of other people. I don't know how directly involved he actually is. He may not be.

HoO was launched by Tommy Robinson and Carl Benjamin (KJK was on his podcast last week)

'those of us who care about poverty and racism' - bit disingenuous there, from Julie Bindel.

I loved the formal 'debate' format. Yes, as @NecessaryScene has pointed out, teasing out the definition of 'right' was more enlightening than the actual motion.

But, our side is debating! We are more than happy to debate! More debate, please. 'No Debate' is ended.

Glad HJ corrected the presenter. And thanks for clarification re HoO. That sounds plausible.

I come over all pedantic when clear untruths are thrown out!

It felt ultimately a bit pointless and frustrating because the answer, and hence the votes, were largely determined by the interpretation of "work with" and "right".

I'd probably answer "no", but then I also wouldn't say that KJK works with the right. Certainly not as much as Bindel does, actually doing paid work for right-wing newspapers.

The closest I've ever seen is the thing where she worked with WoLF while in the US, while WoLF who were working with (in a real sense) the Heritage Foundation ("Hands across the Aisle"), so kind of one step removed, and she has given some interviews to a few pretty far-right types in the past. (She's more cautious about that now). But again, she's not actually arranged a full tour with them and said "but it's okay because it was a debate". The links are far more tenuous than Bindel's.

What KJK refuses to do, and what leads her to be shunned and denounced, is that she refuses to shun or denounce people based on anything other than this issue. Especially women.

Bindel sees herself as part of a broader feminist philosophy and political movement (tribe), and that's a higher priority for her than this particular fight. But KJK is single-issue.

I can see where Bindel is coming from, and ranking issues differently is fine, but I think she's utterly hypocritical about selective redefinition of "work with". It's one of those irregularly declined verbs. And Helen was right to point out the slipperiness of that, along with "right".

And afair, HoO isn't led by Tommy Robinson at all.

There's an association - he was certainly at a launch event, but so were a bunch of other people. I don't know how directly involved he actually is. He may not be.

As a mirror image counterpoint, there were a bunch of people at LGB Alliance's launch event, like Allison Bailey, who people assume are directly involved, but aren't.

He can at least be accurately said to be a high-profile supporter, like Bailey is of LGBA.

Helen Joyce immediately put the presenter right on that bit of misinformation, @ArabellaScott !

The debate was great, I watched it live.

I also liked the audience reaction when the presenter used the 'cis' word!

Thanks. Good to see respectful discussion space set up.

I watched 2 minutes so far:

Unfortunate that the presenter kicks off with misinformation about Kellie Jay Keen's event (she didn't 'allow' Hearts of Oak to film, they just turned up and did so)

And afair, HoO isn't led by Tommy Robinson at all. I don't know much about them, and don't care to, but it would be good to have misinformation debunked.