Helen Joyce & Julie Bindel: Should TERFs unite with the Right?

DH spoke at a couple of their events about the GRA in 2018.

Nothing since then.

I saw that as quite strategic at the time, as it was useful to be able evidence that not all trans identified people were in favour of GRA reform.

It's not about anyone 'admitting' that they're not on the left.

It's about people clarifying their political positions, like both Julie Bindel and Helen Joyce did during the discussion.

WPUK have left-wing politics from working within the TU movement for years, yet they have had no problem platforming and working with Maya Forester and Helen Joyce who don't.

I haven't suggested that these women shouldn't be platformed/headlined or asked to chair, rather that it's testament to WPUK's generosity and clarify of position, that they are clear what their political lines are but can work in a pluralist way.

As Helen Joyce advocated for during the discussion actually.

Yes, and I can see why she thinks that tbh.

Not saying that I agree with her btw, but she was out on her own fighting this for a long time. Painted as a bigot by the right, left, most feminists, pretty much everyone.

As a side issue, after MF saying at Filia, an explicitly feminist and anti-capitalist conference, that SM isn't a feminist organisation and Helen Joyce saying very clearly that her politics have never been left-wing, I think it speaks volumes about WPUk's generosity and commitment to working with other groups that MF and HJ have been platformed/headlined/asked to chair their events several times.

What about obstetric violence, physical and mental, vaginal 'meshes', other procedures being done to women without informed consent?

Do LGBA work with DH? I thought it was WPUK who did.

It's fine for groups to make their own decisions. But stop all the bloody denouncing and cancelling of the women doing something else.

But what struck me is that wpuk jb, folia sfw are all fighting slightly different wars

See i don't think that is what wpuk are doing. They are saying if you don't denounce x I can't work with you. And this is a pity. I've seen the sane thing on the other side with lgba being attacked for platforming Hayton

This. I can’t repeat it often enough. We are under very serious attack, and must not waste our (and our allies’) energy in bickering with each other.

I spent enough time around left and anti-Establishment groups in the 1970s to see strength and energy that could have made great achievements , all squandered on infighting. The Establishment was never in danger!

To be honest, I probably wouldn't "work with" DH because I don't think we do share a common goal. DH's goal seems to me to be DH's ability to cosplay as a woman. That is the opposite of what my goals are. I'd also be concerned about the silencing of the trans widows.

But the thing is, I don't say JB must work with people she doesn't want to work with. I just think that we all need to accept that "guilt by association" isn't a thing, and stop trying to destroy others for making different choices. I have no problem with WPUK et al setting their own boundaries. What I do have a problem with is them trying to set the boundaries for others and then attacking them for not complying.

If not then you must understand why people like wpuk and jb want to set their own boundaries.

The problem is their insistence on setting other people's boundaries, and turning fire on those who do not set them "correctly".

I've had to stop watching as I need to go out in a little while. But I just listened to JB do a whole impassioned takedown of Tommy Robinson, saying that it disgusts her when feminists praise TR and say that the grooming gangs wouldn't have been exposed without him etc.

I didn't disagree with what she said about TR but I was wondering which feminists are publicly praising him and crediting him with bringing grooming gangs to light?

It also struck me, when JB said that this claim was an insult personally to her, that part of this campaign against KJK is because JB thinks she was there first. In her opening comments she talked about how it was her and leftist feminists who brought the issue of gender ideology to light in the first place, so the campaign belongs to the left. I think JB thinks that women like Helen, Maya, Kellie-Jay etc are getting credit for work that JB thinks she should be getting the credit for.

It's difficult, as HJ said in the interview all our ideas are deeply felt. It's not tribalism. For those of you on the pp side of this. Can I ask if you would be prepared to work with transwomen like Debbie Hayton who share a goal (science, rationality, resisting self id) but who are not gender critical. If not then you must understand why people like wpuk and jb want to set their own boundaries.

I’m 100% with KJK:
I don't do guilt by association and I don't accuse other people of guilt by association. I don't do denouncing. I don't do disassociating my self from people... The whole reason is to let women speak, not let them speak and then chastise them and make them feel really bad and tell them they're wrong".

The Trans/Men’s Rights attack on women’s rights is too important for us to waste time on side issues.

I've not felt the same way about Julie Bindel since I saw her make a really unpleasant suggestion on Twitter about Posie Parker. It was several years ago and I'm not going to repeat it - never seen it discussed on here - and I say 'suggestion', not allegation because JB didn't have a scrap of evidence and she knew it. I know we're all only human and capable of good and bad behaviour but that was so out of order I've never been able to shake it off.

And when JB gets called Islamophobic for protesting against the veil, that's wrong and bad. But when KJK says the same thing, JB calls her racist.

I do think JB is sincere, not a grifter. But she has a real arrogance and she's just not that smart.

I need to finish watching the whole video, but that 'special rules' thing seems to be a feature of the left quite frequently. When a leftwing person calls someone on the right 'scum' its fine, but anyone on the right using a dehumanising term = not fine.

(Because most of my friends & family are of the left, I can't really compare if this self justification is common to those on the right, too. Is it? Anyone know?)

And yes, I also think her making up lies about KJK shows a lack of integrity.

I lost a lot of respect for JB when I saw her debating with Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Billy Bragg and she argued that she should not be censored, but people she didn't agree with should be.

Her comments so far in this video are very confused, likewise. She's saying that her collaboration with the right is fine, but others collaborating with the right is bad.

She doesn't seem able to understand that she can't have special rules for herself.

I've not watched the interview but I did listen to JB being interviewed by Katie Herzog where Bindel made the accusation that KJK invited HoO to film in Brighton.

I'm afraid I have lost a lot of respect for her. Making up lies to trash another woman's reputation is unethical and shouldn't be necessary if your argument is strong enough. It's sad that she feels she needs to do it.

Male violence against women and girls underlies everything that Julie write, campaigns about etc and has for decades. It's not 'whataboutery', it's that eg mastectomies on healthy breast tissue are part of MVAWG, not a single issue.

But as far as I know, teenage girls and young women having 'gender affirming' mastectomies is the only VAWG which is condoned and carried out by the NHS.

Interesting response shiny. I also don't think capitalism is a force for good, as it doesn't prioritise well-being of people, animals or the environment.

I think framing double mastectomies as MVAW makes sense from the point of view of the success of gender identity ideology being because of patriarchy, suddenly men can remove the meaning of woman whilst claiming to be oppressed. And if women and girls are damaged in the process they don't care.

I think to change the current situation the arguments need to be made on more specific incremental points.

Link to interesting interview with Kara Dansky on this issue.

I think the point she makes, which resonates with me and no doubt many other women, is that the political left are pushing gender ideology but supporting gender ideology is not a left wing position as most of us understand being "left wing".

She also talks about how angry she is with left leaning media for refusing to platform women who do not support gender ideology. I'm not angry with the political right, I know what they stand for and they're doing what they do but I am angry with the left for abandoning their principles.

I'm pretty sure that what Julie meant by 'the house has been on fire for a long time' is that we can't look at or organise around the harms of gender ideology as separate from the bigger picture of male violence against women and girls.

Male violence against women and girls underlies everything that Julie write, campaigns about etc and has for decades. It's not 'whataboutery', it's that eg mastectomies on healthy breast tissue are part of MVAWG, not a single issue.

She's not a socialist feminist and she said in this discussion that she rarely works with left wing men as they're usually sexist if not downright misogynist.

It's interesting that you found Joyce clearer. She lost me when she started talking about contagion while acknowledging that Julie hadn't mentioned that and I don't understand how a free market can be non oppressive and not rely on some women being left at the bottom.

I do find Joyce clearer and more direct than Bindel.

One thing that struck me was Bindel's response to "the house is on fire" narrative, that nothing is more important than stopping girls/young women having their breasts cut off in the name of gender identity.

She said that appalling as things like that are she was aware of other worse things happening to girls and spoke about FGM.

My problem with that response (and why I don't really like the house on fire phrase) is that

1. a worse thing can always be found. We often get that here with "but what about ...?"

2. The other worse things are illegal in this country, conversely gender identity ideology is being taught in primary schools.

It strikes me that a practical win that women in the UK can achieve is getting schools to teach facts and organisations to follow current laws.

Actually, the more I think about it, the more mad it seems to expect to only work with socialist feminists. It seems like wanting to fail to me.