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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Helen Joyce & Julie Bindel: Should TERFs unite with the Right?

565 replies

ILikeDungs · 09/12/2022 11:22

By Unherd, a debate-style response to the purity spiral after Brighton. I do admire Helen Joyce and her ability to calmly and logically discuss the issues. Unherd have made it age restricted (because of all the fucks, I suppose!):

OP posts:
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beastlyslumber · 13/12/2022 17:44

EndlessTea · 13/12/2022 17:41

I wonder whether the many ‘site down’ situations are when hackers are getting mod login details and they do weird shit, but not too much, so they don’t raise suspicion.

Yeah, who knows? I'm pretty sure there's at least one TRA mod.

EndlessTea · 13/12/2022 17:44

Bosky it is undeniable when you lay it all out like that.

Floisme · 13/12/2022 17:44

Is Julie Bindel part of that Actual Gender Critical Left Facebook group? I think someone's already asked this but I can't see any answer.

EndlessTea · 13/12/2022 17:41

I wonder whether the many ‘site down’ situations are when hackers are getting mod login details and they do weird shit, but not too much, so they don’t raise suspicion.

beastlyslumber · 13/12/2022 17:38

(Meanwhile on another thread, a poster who tells a woman whose husband just tried to kill her that it could be a one off and all these comments telling you to leave are manhaters trying to break up your marriage, has all her comments still standing. Makes you wonder.)

EndlessTea · 13/12/2022 17:35

Seems about right BeastlySlumber

beastlyslumber · 13/12/2022 17:33

EndlessTea · 13/12/2022 17:22

I can’t believe my comment where I refuted the accusation that I’d contradicted myself got deleted. Nuts.

I sometimes suspect the mods randomly delete comments just to remind us all to stay in line.

EndlessTea · 13/12/2022 17:22

I can’t believe my comment where I refuted the accusation that I’d contradicted myself got deleted. Nuts.

Bosky · 13/12/2022 16:46

NecessaryScene · 13/12/2022 13:01

You've contradicted yourself.

There's no contradiction there. The oppression of women is a chronic problem that's been going on for the history of society.

This particular society-wide Woke mess is an new acute problem hitting everyone - particularly women due to their chronic problem.

NecessaryScene - "This particular society-wide Woke mess is a new acute problem hitting everyone - particularly women due to their chronic problem."

JB is so behind the curve on this that she is a liability with her "Calm down, dear, left wing feminists can sort this out!" attitude.

Going with JB's references to FGM, prostitution, etc. the equivalent situation would be:
. . . . schools across the country would be promoting FGM, prostitution, etc.

. . . . the NHS would be planning to increase funding for FGM surgery (well, they are but they don't call it FGM)

. . . . Girl Guiding would have a Lolita Badge for Brownies

. . . . every schoolgirl in the country would either have a pimp or know at least a couple of friends who had volunteered to be regularly gang-raped

. . . . almost every family would have a daughter, grand daughter, niece, cousin or a friend with a child who is convinced that she needs "life-saving FGM surgery" or that if she doesn't have a man selling her to be raped that she will kill herself.

Meanwhile, girls are STILL being trafficked for sex as they have been for the last 40 years and STILL nobody knows how many children are affected and how many perpetrators are involved.
www.iicsa.org.uk/reports-recommendations/publications/investigation

Parents have been organising to protect their children but they do not need to fear that they will be reported to the police for being "untoward about paedophiles".
paceuk.info/

FGM and the rape of children are not being promoted as good and natural things by everyone from the BBC to the CofE and parents are not being taught that a toddler pulling open the poppers on their onesie is signalling that they either want to be raped or be subjected to FGM.

Note:
"FGM" in the previous paragraph is not a synonym for "gender affirming care".

JB really does not seem to appreciate the scale and urgency and, despite her references to the BNP and Tommy Robinson muscling in on the "grooming gang" fiasco, gives pats on the back to her Soc Fem pals who prioritise polishing their left-wing credentials over protecting children.

In the screenshot from the Facebook "Actual Gender Critical Left" note the first comment:
"The replies are all trite cliches. Sometimes I think if I hear (read) "safeguarding" one more time I will vomit".

Note the "reactions": they are all "Likes" or "Laughs".

This is in response to comments on a WPUK Facebook post about Jayne Egerton's article ""Women and the Religious Right in the USA" (lauded by JB).

Note the comments that follow.

What is vastly more important to these women than "safeguarding", which either makes them want to vomit or is a joke, is approbation by other members of their in-crowd and fellow journalists and academics.

The Soc Fems in that screenshot are also mainly in the USA, where the situation is even more dire than here in the UK.

These women, in both the UK and the USA, spend their time researching and posting about Hearts of Oak, Tommy Robinson, the Proud Boys, etc. as well as the increasingly ugly and dangerous backlash by the USA religious right against anything and everything under the LGBT+ umbrella.

There is also post after damning post about women in the UK and USA who are taking court cases, organising public meetings and street protests, who are doing their utmost to engage with policy-makers and the public and raise awareness. Utterly evil - some of them have even appeared on the Tucker Carlson Show 😱

JB seems to have in her mind's eye a fantasy army of Left Wing Feminists bravely doing battle to save women and children from male violence, of which transgender ideology is just the latest pocket of horrors. She praises their armchair activism, which consists predominantly of slagging-off actual activists in blog posts and on social media.

The irony is that KJK obviously admires JB and has repeatedly invited her on to her YouTube Channel and to attend #LetWomenSpeak events.

JB seems to think that to do so would damn her as a "right wing bigot" - apparently not realising that she already has that reputation with some on "the Left", being seen as a sell-out patsy writing click-bait for the Daily Mail. However, on the Right she is seen as a raging Left-wing feminist, so her involvement might well serve to scare off - or educate - the right wing men apparently lurking in the shadows ready to appropriate Gender Critical activism.

By contrast, HJ seems well aware that this is much more than a feminist issue and that we should not hang around while it gets rapidly worse, leaving the field wide open for violent far-right opportunists to step in, ie. without any help or encouragement from the diverse ranks of dissenters who are Gender Critical women and Feminists.

The far right, mainly men, are already doing just that in the USA and, wouldn't you know it, the Soc Fems who sit on their arses penning hit-pieces are blaming other women.

Pull your finger out, Julie, stop being part of the problem and start being part of the solution.

Helen Joyce & Julie Bindel: Should TERFs unite with the Right?
Helen Joyce & Julie Bindel: Should TERFs unite with the Right?
Helen Joyce & Julie Bindel: Should TERFs unite with the Right?
Helen Joyce & Julie Bindel: Should TERFs unite with the Right?
beastlyslumber · 13/12/2022 13:57

beastlyslumber · 12/12/2022 19:43

Setting aside differences isn't an equitable thing though, if one party has more power than the other. It's using the resources of the less powerful party to shore up the resources of the more powerful, who are the ultimate winners.

What if feminists are the more powerful group? In most of the examples they talked about, I'd say they were.

Sorry @Shinyredbicycle maybe your "you've lost me" comment wasn't directed at me? But in case it was, this is the comment I made. You asked which groups, and I repeated, the groups HJ and JB talked about in the discussion.

beastlyslumber · 13/12/2022 13:53

Shinyredbicycle · 13/12/2022 12:53

Sorry, you've lost me.

In a political context, who do feminists have more power over?

The obvious 'groups in this debate' are TAs, MRAs, gender ideologists, lobbying groups like Stonewall etc.

Which ones of those do feminists have power over?

Don't know how I've lost you. I clearly answered your question.

But I think you've changed the terms a bit. It wasn't a matter of saying feminist groups have power OVER other groups, but that they are relatively more powerful than the groups discussed in the debate.

EndlessTea · 13/12/2022 13:48

Oh another key point of HJs was that people on the left tend to have a dualistic idea of good and evil, goodies and baddies and tend to believe that people on the right are the baddies and that every thing they do is driven by their evil intent.

EndlessTea · 13/12/2022 13:20

One thing for certain, and you definitely see it in that debate, is that JB has her die hard fans, who are very ostentatiously laughing along in support every time she quips. I don’t think any of those could see any fault in her.

EndlessTea · 13/12/2022 13:15

Shinyredbicycle · 13/12/2022 13:05

Or you could read some of the many books and articles that she's written which explain her rationale very clearly.

Obvs, not saying that you should, although they are very interesting.

By the same token, if someone wants to point me in the direction of an explanation of market based economics that doesn't rely on some social groups being oppressed or at the bottom of the pile, I'd be interested.

I’ve never seen her explain clearly the subject of the debate, you are making assumptions about my level of familiarity.

EndlessTea · 13/12/2022 13:12

Shinyredbicycle · 13/12/2022 13:01

Sure, although there are lots of posts on this thread saying that JB didn't explain her reasoning fully (I agree btw for the reasons I've given above).

I don't understand Helen Joyce's political position as she didn't fully explain it either.

I feel that HJ’s style is always ameliorative and she supports her opponents in quite a generous way, looking for common ground and avoiding being confrontational or making them look daft. It means her point can play second-fiddle to her social grace, but I think her argument in this debate is this:

There are decent people and arseholes in this world, regardless of their politics. If you hold to your personal understanding of the truth, you will piss people off, whether or not you agree with their politics overall.

Work with people who are decent whatever their politics.

Even work with someone whose views are completely opposed to yours, if you keep that overlapping interest within strict boundaries.

What does ‘working with’ mean anyway? It’s important to clarify that in order to answer the question.

Shinyredbicycle · 13/12/2022 13:05

Or you could read some of the many books and articles that she's written which explain her rationale very clearly.

Obvs, not saying that you should, although they are very interesting.

By the same token, if someone wants to point me in the direction of an explanation of market based economics that doesn't rely on some social groups being oppressed or at the bottom of the pile, I'd be interested.

EndlessTea · 13/12/2022 13:02

Thanks necessaryscene

EndlessTea · 13/12/2022 13:01

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

NecessaryScene · 13/12/2022 13:01

You've contradicted yourself.

There's no contradiction there. The oppression of women is a chronic problem that's been going on for the history of society.

This particular society-wide Woke mess is an new acute problem hitting everyone - particularly women due to their chronic problem.

Shinyredbicycle · 13/12/2022 13:01

Sure, although there are lots of posts on this thread saying that JB didn't explain her reasoning fully (I agree btw for the reasons I've given above).

I don't understand Helen Joyce's political position as she didn't fully explain it either.

Shinyredbicycle · 13/12/2022 12:58

You've contradicted yourself.

You said that gender ideology is an acute situation not a chronic one.

Now you're saying that it's part of a chronic problem (which is what JB said).

EndlessTea · 13/12/2022 12:54

Interesting DameMaud.

I had been thinking that JB is definitely coming from an instinctive, emotional place, so if you want to know her rationale, it’s like trying to grab a bar of soap under water.

I wonder if that is why PP pisses her off so much? A fellow instinctive, emotional, roll-yer-sleeves-up type ‘doer’.

Shinyredbicycle · 13/12/2022 12:53

Sorry, you've lost me.

In a political context, who do feminists have more power over?

The obvious 'groups in this debate' are TAs, MRAs, gender ideologists, lobbying groups like Stonewall etc.

Which ones of those do feminists have power over?

DameMaud · 13/12/2022 11:02

beastlyslumber · 13/12/2022 09:50

The right think women are private property, the left think they're public property?

I don't think that's completely true, though.

That's the one I think. Thanks Beastly.

I don't know either, it just get coming to mind and was frustrated I couldn't recall it or find it anywhere

Re the discussion, I am so glad HJ and JB had this debate.

The discussion around this on here is highlighting why being exposed to arguments between opposing perspectives is so important.

From the debate, and more so from this thread discussion, I've been able to resolve some confused responses I've had to JB in the past, as well as some with HJ too.

I'm thinking about Ian McGilchrist's work around the two hemispheres of the brain, and there seems to be something important here in the wisdom in being able to integrate the particular with the global, and the emotional with the rational.

I appreciate Redbicycles posts for having helped me understand more clearly where JB is coming from. They helped me feel empathy for JB's position and also have more cognitive empathy/theory of mind which helps me stay open and learn from what she is saying even if something jars . (This is something that I've found hard to hold onto in the heatedness of the wider debate). Especially interesting as I have probably spent much of my life in denial/minimisation of the impact my own experiences with MV.

And with HJ, and the arguments from posters here, I can appreciate thinking through the issues with rationality and a big picture focus. Although this is where my leaning already lies.

Feeling and thinking, personal and political, left and right, individual and communal, etc I think we are in the midst of trying to resolve a mass tension of opposites (for those who like Jung). I can't find the quote, but Jung said something about not being able to solve conflicts and polarities in the world, until we can hold this tension of the opposites (polarities) in ourselves.

That's why no debate is so dangerous, and why for me debates like this one, even on conflicts within one side of the debate are so important.

I think the wider issue won't come to any resolution until the tensions within one side, and ultimately, within our selves are addressed, and the tension is held by being able to hold the truth of both things.

Wrt pp and JCJ quote about 'eyes opened to the patriarchy' I wouldn't even have discovered (or at least read as much as I have) from JB if it wasn't for what's happening now. That has been both personal and political for me. This JCJ quote is spot on.

beastlyslumber · 13/12/2022 09:50

The right think women are private property, the left think they're public property?

I don't think that's completely true, though.

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