Active discussions

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

BBC: UK govt may not recognise a proposed new system in Scotland to allow people to legally change their gender, and hasn't ruled out a legal challenge

55 replies

ResisterRex · 08/12/2022 18:32

From the BBC's political correspondent

twitter.com/bbcdavidwl/status/1600898263330144258?s=46&t=rzUbh4c1nyeBtlrZx733bg

"EXC: UK govt may not recognise a proposed new system in Scotland to allow people to legally change their gender. They're also not ruling out a legal challenge.

This could could hugely complicate matters for anyone changing gender in Scotland and then moving elsewhere in UK (1/5)

New process in Scotland will make easier to obtain a gender recognition certificate. UK Gov source said "absolutely" possible rest of UK won't recognise Scot certificates

Source said it's "test case scenario" of how Holyrood bill could "undermine Westminster competencies". 2/5

Same source told me that Scottish ministers wanted to paint Scotland as a "haven of inclusivity" in comparison to a "nasty Westminster".

Kemi Badenoch (equalities minister) has written to Scot Gov expressing concerns about bill 3/5

Scot Gov spokes said Ms Badenoch was responding to letter sent by Scot Gov in Oct "setting out relevant policy considerations for the UK Government, undertaking to work constructively on cross-border issues, and offering to meet."

Scot Gov say happy to meet Ms Badenoch 4/5

This legislation looks set to be passed by MSPs this month.

It's been controversial in Scotland, and looks like some of that controversy could shortly spill over into cross-border issues. 5/5"

OP posts:
New posts on this thread. Refresh page
ArabellaScott · 11/12/2022 14:30

Yes, although they're not above flat out lies, either!

Original poster
ResisterRex · 11/12/2022 13:47

I thought it would be a neat way of removing "problematic" (ie fact-based) responses based on publicly available information

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 11/12/2022 13:37

Those are very good points, ResisterRex. I don't remember it, but it doesn't surprise me.

The Scotgov seems to be making this 'consultation' approach over various areas. It's a 'consultation' in name only - remember Sturgeon said she hoped to convince people of the rightness of her view with the consultation?

Original poster
ResisterRex · 11/12/2022 12:51

Arabella on the consultation...I posted this on the other thread but seems relevant here...

Do you remember that the Scottish consultation said:

"The Committee will not, as part of its scrutiny, address or explore issues which are outwith the scope of the Bill as outlined above. Submissions which contain offensive language, do not comply with GDPR requirements or are not relevant to the Committee’s scrutiny will not be published."

Does anyone remember this? I do because I commented on it specifically. I think it means that they closed their minds and that as no definition of "offensive" was given, that lack of definition PLUS the bizarre insertion of GDPR, might well mean that anyone who tried to give public, documented examples of male prison rapists in female prisons, would've had their answer struck out.

Thus the Scottish government couldn't have considered the impacts in full, when you think of all the things that strange stipulation could apply to.

I'll also say that to my mind, this Bill threatens public safety and minors. If the Scottish government doesn't care then the UK government must. And they must act to protect public safety and to protect children

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 11/12/2022 12:36

'MSPs of all parties need a free, open forum to hear from all sides of this debate and express their sincerely held views.'

If only that could actually happen. The 'six words' debate on the Forensic Medical Services Bill showed exactly what happens when this issue is let loose in the debate chamber.

It's absurd that the Bill has been waved through on the votes of seven people - in several instances, with a difference of one or two votes meaning it was passed.

This is not democracy.

Neither is ignoring any views that don't accord with those of the government.

What bothers me is that even when the gov does hold a 'consultation', it disregards the majority views, chooses not to bother publishing them, or dismisses them.

ArabellaScott · 11/12/2022 12:32

Thanks so much, ResisterRex and Clymene!

Whereareyourshoes · 11/12/2022 11:24

Thank you for the share tokens. I am willing for the SNP to be offered any face-saving exit from this dangerous mess of a Bill. So much energy wasted on ‘no debate’.

Clymene · 11/12/2022 10:47

ArabellaScott · 11/12/2022 10:43

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nicola-sturgeon-is-damaging-womens-faith-in-politics-7m9p8s3ck

Can't read it! But Rachael Hamilton has been superb on this issue, so good to see her in the Times.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c90c692e-78b2-11ed-8f77-a37cd0bbbd4a?shareToken=bad3d1d0b96788f7ddb5300a516a4f49

Share token 😊

Original poster
ResisterRex · 11/12/2022 10:46

Here you go:

Nicola Sturgeon is damaging women’s faith in politics

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c90c692e-78b2-11ed-8f77-a37cd0bbbd4a?shareToken=c5676b69ab61b062fa23276ec6ffc5cc

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 11/12/2022 10:43

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nicola-sturgeon-is-damaging-womens-faith-in-politics-7m9p8s3ck

Can't read it! But Rachael Hamilton has been superb on this issue, so good to see her in the Times.

Baldieheid · 11/12/2022 09:38

There's no dace saving possible. Women know now what the Scottish govt think of them. Its going to take a long bloody time before I forget.

Original poster
ResisterRex · 11/12/2022 07:08

This seems pointless, unless orchestrated to allow the SG a face-saving exit from the Bill:

Call for summit on self-ID change

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d7063f16-78d3-11ed-8f77-a37cd0bbbd4a?shareToken=f5022676d8830efad8a5dc13d14fabcf

OP posts:
Original poster
ResisterRex · 09/12/2022 21:01

Latest. "Nothing is off the table:

Ministers threaten legal action over fears Nicola Sturgeon’s gender bill could lead to ‘trans tourism’

archive.ph/2022.12.09-201342/www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/12/09/ministers-threaten-legal-action-fears-nicola-sturgeons-gender/

"The Attorney General’s office is currently drawing up legal advice for the UK Government on the implications of the new legislation on the union, The Telegraph understands.
Ministers are currently studying various avenues, including a possible legal challenge against the measure. They are also looking at whether the UK Government could refuse to recognise the Scottish gender recognition certificates.
“It is pretty unprecedented to have a devolved administration potentially alter UK wide processes and structures,” a government source said.
“The SNP’s political purpose is very clear - it is to undermine the union. There is legal advice coming in on this, we are exploring all the different possibilities and options. Nothing is off the table.”"

OP posts:
tilder · 09/12/2022 19:41

ArabellaScott · 09/12/2022 19:37

Wings Over Scotland's analysis is that NS and the SNP don't want independence. They get good salaries, pensions, power. So long as they stay part of the union - achieving indie would render their existence defunct. But their political narrative consists almost entirely of railing against WM.

That would be even more poisonous. How foul and self serving. Even if only partly true.

ArabellaScott · 09/12/2022 19:38

(IDK if I fully agree, tbh, but that's what a large proportion of pro independence commenters have been saying for a while).

ArabellaScott · 09/12/2022 19:37

So - the Scotgov foster divisiveness, but don't actually do much to push independence, just try to keep the country in a constant state of resentment and powerlessness.

ArabellaScott · 09/12/2022 19:37

Wings Over Scotland's analysis is that NS and the SNP don't want independence. They get good salaries, pensions, power. So long as they stay part of the union - achieving indie would render their existence defunct. But their political narrative consists almost entirely of railing against WM.

tilder · 09/12/2022 19:24

I can't believe I missed the nationalist politics in this. Everything she does is to further her case for devolution. Us and them. We're progressive and liberal, they're old fashioned and bigoted. They will interfere in our politics and prevent us from implementing our laws.

FFS. I loathe the way she does politics. It's so divisive. How dare she throw women and girls under a bus to try to further her political agenda.

She won't back down because that would look like she is capitulating to Westminster.

ArabellaScott · 09/12/2022 17:04

Justtoshare · 09/12/2022 16:35

Just done this. Thanks for the link it works well.

Show quote history

You're welcome! It's a brilliant site.

Baldieheid · 09/12/2022 17:00

Am I the only one who sees the word "inclusion" and knows immediately that I'm excluded? I'm a tad pissed off at being excluded from humanity in Scotland just for the crime of being female.

Justtoshare · 09/12/2022 16:35

ArabellaScott · 09/12/2022 10:10

www.writetothem.com/

So easy to write to your MSPs! Just add your postcode!

You can send a one-liner asking for a pause or a vote against the GRR bill.

Just done this. Thanks for the link it works well.

nilsmousehammer · 09/12/2022 15:06

Scottish ministers wanted to paint Scotland as a "haven of inclusivity" in comparison to a "nasty Westminster".

<falls about laughing>

Oh God. #missionfail

Westminster looks moderate, sane and the one remaining hope for women and homosexual people compared to Scotland as a totalitarian, misogynist bunch of utter nutjobs who don't seem to be able to see a train wreck in progress.

Come on Westminster, shoot this down. No destroying the rights of 50% of the population on a sexed basis while pretending anyone ever actually 'changes sex'.

ArabellaScott · 09/12/2022 10:18

Sorry, I've got confused - there are two Panelbase polls, one from ForWomen Scotland, one from Wings Over Scotland.

Here's a clear and useful summation:

forwomen.scot/04/10/2022/public-opinion-polls/

ArabellaScott · 09/12/2022 10:16

Express Twitter poll:

www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/scottish-news/gender-recognition-act-snp-poll-26031337

90 per cent said they opposed

& Panelbase poll found that as much as 71 per cent of Scots opposed the SNPs reforms

Can't find that specific poll directly, here's another report on it:

'The poll of over 1,000 Scottish adults, conducted by Panelbase on behalf of For Women Scotland, found that 71 per cent believed people wishing to change legal sex should be assessed by a medical professional first, with only 29 per cent in favour of self-identification.'

www.christian.org.uk/news/more-polls-show-most-scots-oppose-gender-self-id-plans/

Ah, it's presumably the one commissioned by Wings Over Scotland:

wingsoverscotland.com/voting-for-people-who-hate-you/

Survation Poll:

'being supportive of transgender self-expression is not the same as supporting self-declaration for legal gender recognition'

murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2021/12/14/polling-shows-being-supportive-of-transgender-self-expression-is-not-the-same-as-supporting-self-declaration-for-legal-gender-recognition/

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/most-scots-are-opposed-to-gender-self-id-poll-suggests-q0qzkjqnf

www.holyrood.com/news/view,only-a-fifth-of-scots-back-plans-for-selfid-transgender-laws

For balance, something that claims to debunk the For Women Scotland Panelbase poll:

theferret.scot/gender-recognition-act-self-identification-fact-check/

ArabellaScott · 09/12/2022 10:10

www.writetothem.com/

So easy to write to your MSPs! Just add your postcode!

You can send a one-liner asking for a pause or a vote against the GRR bill.

Swipe left for the next trending thread