Page 35 | Women's rights general conversations

Kucingsparkles · 2022-12-06T15:14:02+00:00

This is an _experimental_ thread, all input much appreciated! There is so much excellent information and so many active discussions on FWR that I wondered if it would be useful to have a thread to sort of "cross-fertilise" between them - airing little thoughts or vignettes that wouldn't themselves merit their own thread, to highlight other posts/threads of particular interest or to point to notable developments on fast-moving threads so that casual observers know where to look. (For example, "the X thread has meandered onto a fascinating discussion of Y" or "Poster P's amazing analysis on thread Z might have relevance to the scenario in thread W" or ^even^ "Random bloke asked me to ^smile^ while I was choosing onions, grr"- that sort of thing). Right, bring on the flames or flowers! ^<cowers>^

TassLeHoff · 06/12/2022 23:14

"Sex work" is not easy money. It is quick money, and those are very different concepts.

I agree

WomaninBoots · 06/12/2022 23:14

TassLeHoff · 06/12/2022 23:09

The women who were talking about why they were in prostitution were from way back when I was squatting

My two non-sexual encounters were years later

Show quote history

Also. You didn't understand my post because you're not actually reading the thread because you don't actually see women as people so what we are saying doesn't matter to you.

HatThatWearsYou · 06/12/2022 23:14

TassLeHoff · 06/12/2022 23:13

They were friends, I wasn't a customer

Sorry if that wasn't clear

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Thought you were leaving?

Helleofabore · 06/12/2022 23:13

If you've never known anyone in the "business" you have no right to tell me what other people I know have said or done

Really? You have spoken to these women about their times as prostitutes in the years after they left?

Or are you fixated on what they said as young women having dicks shoved into parts of their body for money?

Do they talk to you now about it? Tell you it was a proud moment in their lives?

Please be honest about this. You have just told umpteen feminists that you know these women enthusiastically embraced this life and would have done it for free or turned down better paying jobs with better conditions to continue to have dicks shoved into their bodies.

So? did they? Did they have other alternatives? Or have you told yourself that they had other choices?

TassLeHoff · 06/12/2022 23:13

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 06/12/2022 23:10

Why are sex buyers always so convinced that they're the only ones who have ever had contact with prostituted women?

Do you not realise that these women carry on existing when you're not in the room? They have lives independently of servicing exploitative men.

Prostituted women are sisters, mothers and daughters. Even non-related women talk to each other. We share experiences.

"Sex work" is not easy money. It is quick money, and those are very different concepts.

Show quote history

They were friends, I wasn't a customer

Sorry if that wasn't clear

WomaninBoots · 06/12/2022 23:12

TassLeHoff · 06/12/2022 23:10

OK, this is obviously not the best place to discuss this

Toodle Pip

Translation.

I know I'm a rape apologist and out and out misogynist but I can't face up to it because I also Know that I'm One Of The Good Guys and my ego can't take it.

Yarnosaura · 06/12/2022 23:11

TassLeHoff · 06/12/2022 23:07

Just speak to women who have chosen that path; it varies, but they are in control in well-regulated environments

I'm recounting stuff from real women who have made different choices to the norm, some of whom benefited from it, others who really didn't

Lol. Do you think you're the only one who's ever spoken to or listened to prostituted women?

You cannot 'splain away your complicity here.

You are admitting to being complicit in the abuse of women and girls.

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 06/12/2022 23:10

TassLeHoff · 06/12/2022 23:00

Seriously?

If you've never known anyone in the "business" you have no right to tell me what other people I know have said or done

I'll drop this now as it's obviously contentious, but it's not about a man knowing more about women than they do, it's just someone who knew sex workers who worked in a favourable environment (which can be rare, tbh) and others who destroyed themselves

I also know many men who destroyed themselves through drugs, but the sudden increase in income from sex work isn't great for drug addicts

Show quote history

Why are sex buyers always so convinced that they're the only ones who have ever had contact with prostituted women?

Do you not realise that these women carry on existing when you're not in the room? They have lives independently of servicing exploitative men.

Prostituted women are sisters, mothers and daughters. Even non-related women talk to each other. We share experiences.

"Sex work" is not easy money. It is quick money, and those are very different concepts.

TassLeHoff · 06/12/2022 23:10

OK, this is obviously not the best place to discuss this

Toodle Pip

HatThatWearsYou · 06/12/2022 23:09

TassLeHoff · 06/12/2022 23:07

Just speak to women who have chosen that path; it varies, but they are in control in well-regulated environments

I'm recounting stuff from real women who have made different choices to the norm, some of whom benefited from it, others who really didn't

Just speak to some women who have escaped that part of their lives!

They were not in control, they were not in well-regulated environments. they were not safe, they were not happy. They convinced themselves they were ok (arguably succeeding to varying degrees) until they had escaped and could face the reality of what had been done to them. Those that escaped and lived to tell their stories that is.

TassLeHoff · 06/12/2022 23:09

WomaninBoots · 06/12/2022 23:06

So you're just going to ignore all the discussion around why prostituted women were probably telling you that everything is just fine with their lives?

You totally bought sex and can't face the reality of the harm you did.

The women who were talking about why they were in prostitution were from way back when I was squatting

My two non-sexual encounters were years later

ArabellaScott · 06/12/2022 23:08

Take your 'recounting' and your 'norm' and put it in the bin.

OmiOmy · 06/12/2022 23:08

ErrolTheDragon · 06/12/2022 22:59

My tangent is anyone going to run FWR women of the year poll and awards this year?

Oh gosh, it's December ... that still leaves quite a bit of time for new contenders at the rate things develop! But would be good for someone to start another soon. Can't remember what rules (if there were any) we had before.

So many women to choose from already.

TassLeHoff · 06/12/2022 23:07

Just speak to women who have chosen that path; it varies, but they are in control in well-regulated environments

I'm recounting stuff from real women who have made different choices to the norm, some of whom benefited from it, others who really didn't

HatThatWearsYou · 06/12/2022 23:07

"Favourable environment", "Safe" FFS it would be laughable if it weren't rage inducing.

WomaninBoots · 06/12/2022 23:06

So you're just going to ignore all the discussion around why prostituted women were probably telling you that everything is just fine with their lives?

You totally bought sex and can't face the reality of the harm you did.

Yarnosaura · 06/12/2022 23:06

Paying for consent is coerced consent.

ArabellaScott · 06/12/2022 23:04

Seriously, I cannot believe you are still here.

Helleofabore · 06/12/2022 23:03

So hoff if it was a safe environment, did you then join the group and allow punters to exploit your body ?

if not, why not?

HatThatWearsYou · 06/12/2022 23:03

You can ignore reports and evidence to the contrary to continue to justify your abhorrent stance but it won't change the fact that prostitution is incredibly harmful to the women who are prostitutes and to women as a sex class. Yes I think you should drop it.

You are still disgusting for trying to rent women's bodies twice and continuing to mansplain to us that it's fine and empowering.

TassLeHoff · 06/12/2022 23:00

ArabellaScott · 06/12/2022 22:39

File under: Men Who Know Women Better Than They Know Themselves.

Seriously?

If you've never known anyone in the "business" you have no right to tell me what other people I know have said or done

I'll drop this now as it's obviously contentious, but it's not about a man knowing more about women than they do, it's just someone who knew sex workers who worked in a favourable environment (which can be rare, tbh) and others who destroyed themselves

I also know many men who destroyed themselves through drugs, but the sudden increase in income from sex work isn't great for drug addicts

Helleofabore · 06/12/2022 23:00

ExiledElsie · 06/12/2022 22:45

I also suspect that many people who do this kind of work probably do tell others that it’s fine, because, well, nobody wants to admit how shit everything really might be.

You suspect right. At a fairly recent Nordic Model Now meeting the ex-prostitutes said that when in it you have to keep insisting that it's fine, you can handle it, you're in control. To ask women who are still being prostituted to admit the horror is extremely cruel and for their own sanity they won't do it.

One woman said that she has only got angrier about what happened to her the more years that have past since she managed to get out.

yes elsie because I suspect those women moved from survival mode and ‘whatever I am fine’ mode to processing what actually happened to them and understanding just what they had allowed people to do to them.

ErrolTheDragon · 06/12/2022 22:59

My tangent is anyone going to run FWR women of the year poll and awards this year?

Oh gosh, it's December ... that still leaves quite a bit of time for new contenders at the rate things develop! But would be good for someone to start another soon. Can't remember what rules (if there were any) we had before.

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 06/12/2022 22:54

ExiledElsie · 06/12/2022 22:45

I also suspect that many people who do this kind of work probably do tell others that it’s fine, because, well, nobody wants to admit how shit everything really might be.

You suspect right. At a fairly recent Nordic Model Now meeting the ex-prostitutes said that when in it you have to keep insisting that it's fine, you can handle it, you're in control. To ask women who are still being prostituted to admit the horror is extremely cruel and for their own sanity they won't do it.

One woman said that she has only got angrier about what happened to her the more years that have past since she managed to get out.

This. Everyone I've ever known in an ongoing abusive situation (which being prostituted is!) only grasped the full horror of what had been done to them once they were out of it.

This is how our minds protect us.

OmiOmy · 06/12/2022 22:54

ErrolTheDragon · 06/12/2022 22:50

This thread isn't going quite as I'd expected... seems to be an exchange between a bloke who doesn't care what we think and we don't care what he thinks.

I'm going to butt in at a tangent to remind everyone to visit the petitions board once in a while - there's often stuff worth supporting, some explicitly feminist, some not.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/petitions_noticeboard

Thanks Errol

My tangent is anyone going to run FWR women of the year poll and awards this year?