Women's rights general conversations

Possible link fail, try this one www.newspapers.com/image/16617851/?clipping_id=43647&fcfToken=eyJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiIsInR5cCI6IkpXVCJ9.eyJmcmVlLXZpZXctaWQiOjE2NjE3ODUxLCJpYXQiOjE2NzA0NTA1OTIsImV4cCI6MTY3MDUzNjk5Mn0.aP5dECEP-cYfm9B_P5AA11WW4xLtkKh4URSHC6ToQVY

The ‘Green River Killer’ was another one where prostitutes weren’t people. Here’s an article from 1984:

www.newspapers.com/image/16617851

Article here on, among other things, the commoditisation of women's bodies. From the estimable Karen Ingala Smith.

thecritic.co.uk/the-sex-trade-is-inherently-unsafe/

I remember watching a documentary about this years ago and being so shocked about this. It was a first seed of awakening that's come to full fruition in more recent years.
Reading those awful words again now. There's that mysterious anger!

Someone mentioned "The Five" by Hallie Rubenhold. She has a podcast, Bad Women, the first series was basically the book with added stuff. Some of the added stuff was the abuse she's had from "Ripperologists" who take offence at her refusal to "accept" that all the women murdered were working as prostitutes. She's had threats from them and of course, they all know best despite her being an actual historian and them being men who get off on trying to find out who some serial killer is. It is very, very important to them that the women remain cardboard cutout prostitutes and do not become fully formed women with lives that make them more interesting and their ends all the more tragic. Nope, only "Jack" matters.

The second series is about women being murdered in WWII, part of it based on a man known as the Blitz Ripper but also other women meeting their ends at the hands of other "nice" men. There's an added episode about Black GIs and the women they had relationships with.

Here is a thread from Elly Arrow about the physical realities of being in the sex trade, performing sex acts you don't want to do, on men who want their money's worth.

Caution: contains reference to factual reality and physics.
twitter.com/EllyArrow/status/1431531246283329544?

www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/marilyn-monroe-film-blonde-sounds-like-shallow-guff-based-on-director-andrew-dominiks-talk-of-well-dressed-whores-and-more-laura-waddell-3944996

Laura Waddell talks about the filmmaker not really seeing Monroe as a full person.

I hope you can find a way to be free of it soon, it’s such a heavy weight to carry

It’s hard reading those remarks from Michael Havers QC, and thinking that that’s an attitude that still exists. One of those moments in history where someone says something out loud and you see that things like the 60s and 70s changed so much about women’s lives, in terms of property, divorce, work, and so on but not what men were thinking.

It's an object lesson.

I'm sure there is an interview or article where he discusses having been someone who didn't give credence to what feminists said before, and only because of following this one issue has it become clear how misogyny actually works in action.

I think Brendan O'Neill may have had a similar process or realisation, for similar reasons.

Oh. In Googling, I found this, from 2013:

brendanoneill.co.uk/post/57546822125/thoughts-on-feminism

More recently:

www.spiked-online.com/2022/03/17/stop-blaming-women-for-mens-crimes/

The Attorney General, Sir Michael Havers QC, at the trial in 1981 said of Peter Sutcliffe's victims in his opening statement: "Some were prostitutes, but perhaps the saddest part of the case is that some were not. The last six attacks were on totally respectable women"

Cyan, thank you for this:
"I have excused countless despicable behaviours to my own detriment (but never when those behaviours directed at other women, for some reason) because the man was ‘damaged’ or sad or lonely or had a difficult childhood or whatever else. Last year I decided to free myself of all that and finally come to my senses that I am not here to be an emotional support human for men and I am not responsible for their wellbeing nor their shitty behaviour."

Yes, me too re the first part, I haven't managed the 'freeing myself' part yet.

Thanks Arabella - interesting that in that tweet Douglas Murray says almost exactly what JK Rowling said. But seems to have got far fewer death threats.

In the anger article, one of thrbthinga I noted in the comparison with 2012 was the US women saying it is now more difficult to discuss consent with their partners. Porn related, presumably, as expectations based on that get more extreme and rigid?

A female friend once told me of the incredible and rather horrible things she'd been asked to do by male partners. I wondered that if that was what blokes in a consensual encounter would ask for, what the hell would they demand if they were paying?

That man last night. What a dick

We have two whole boards on MN, this one which is essentially the old FWR, plus another because we were mean or something, and other people wanted to discuss the really important feminist issues we don't. Or something.

In practice, feminism chat is little used,

Funny how patterns repeat. On the other forum it was 2 threads, not 2 boards, but otherwise very much the same.

Of course the site owner (and others) then complained that the not-fluffy feminism thread was focusing on non-fluffy feminism, instead of covering a wider (fluffier) range of issues.

I have now typed fluffy too many times, and it no longer looks like a word.

I was only vaguely aware of that Trevor project. Unsurprised to find it has similar issues to several similar organisations. I don't understand why more people can't see that 13-24 is a really problematic age range for any sort of group based around sexual issues. It seems to be a common choice, when it should be so obviously inappropriate.

Prostitution terminoloy - I can ever make up my mind on this one. 'Prostitute' - hsitorical baggage. Woman who works as .../...' - person first is good, but the 'work' part jars with me, too close to the 'sex work is work' arguments. 'Prostitutes women' - removes agency. There doesn't seem to be a right way to say it. Then again, perhaps there is no right way to say a wrong thing.

Invisible elephant in the woman's anger article? It must be a female elephant - too high pitched, so nobody can hear the trumpeting.

<Goes back to catch up on the other links>

Love that Chinese proverb @BoreOfWhabylon

When sleeping women wake,
Mountains move

Chinese proverb

Linky:

www.thetrevorproject.org/resources/article/understanding-gender-identities/

Thank you QuickNameChangeAgain. I should have spotted that.

Good grief

Well this makes me fucking angry! Bumping this post as it shouldn't get lost. This is grooming children in plain sight. @QuickNameChangeAgain - has this been reported to the police, the Charity Commission if they're a charity or anyone else?

@MrsOvertonsWindow. Unfortunately, they are based in California but obviously have worldwide reach. Take a look at their Understanding Gender Identities page, which starts off okay and then they say:

It’s important to remember that these gender roles aren’t set in stone. Even though our society expects certain things when we identify as a man or a woman, we don’t have to follow them if they don’t fit who we are. In fact, gender and sex exist on a spectrum, meaning that there are a lot of different ways that people can express their gender identity or sex.
Transgender Identities
When we’re born, a doctor assigns us a sex. This has to do with our biology, chromosomes, and physical body. Male babies are generally assumed to be “men” and female babies are generally assumed to be “women.” Some people never question their assigned gender or sex, and choose to identify with what they were assigned at birth – that’s called being “cisgender.” But there are others who do question their gender or sex, and that’s completely normal and ok.

They say they have moderators and AI but as The Gays Against Groomers report shows, inappropriate content/contact is happening.

The interesting thing about women's anger is that men have no idea what it actually means. Men will get angry quite fast, but women will simmer for a long, long time and then it builds up to a head and then they'll explode. If enough women do that all at once, it'll be a massive shock for the men.

I think - hope! - that's what's happening now. It does feel to me that the cauldron is bubbling and the bubbles are getting bigger and the lid is bouncing about and soon it won't be able to stay on any longer and will fly off as the bubbles burst and the kitchen is splashed with hot boiling fury and righteous rage.