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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Women's rights general conversations

986 replies

Kucingsparkles · 06/12/2022 15:14

This is an experimental thread, all input much appreciated!

There is so much excellent information and so many active discussions on FWR that I wondered if it would be useful to have a thread to sort of "cross-fertilise" between them - airing little thoughts or vignettes that wouldn't themselves merit their own thread, to highlight other posts/threads of particular interest or to point to notable developments on fast-moving threads so that casual observers know where to look.

(For example, "the X thread has meandered onto a fascinating discussion of Y" or "Poster P's amazing analysis on thread Z might have relevance to the scenario in thread W" or even "Random bloke asked me to smile while I was choosing onions, grr"- that sort of thing).

Right, bring on the flames or flowers! <cowers>

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NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 15/12/2022 21:21

SinnerBoy · 15/12/2022 18:22

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · Today 15:47

How come trans-identifying males are allowed to be scared of men, but women aren't?

Aha! I know the answer:

Because reasons and magic unicorn sparkle gender woo woo.

Do you see now?

Now I get it!

CyanCyan sometimes, yes. See this "transgender female", who felt unsafe that there was a male cleaner in the women's toilet at McDonalds.

Women's rights general conversations
CyanCyan · 15/12/2022 21:03

Have they said it’s because they’re scared of men? I guess some would argue that it’s not because they’re scared of men, it’s that they identify as a woman and therefore feel they have a right to unrestricted access of all women’s spaces. Like Beira’s Place has shown, transwomen have a access to a trans-inclusive rape crisis centre run by a transwoman but it’s not enough, it’s not fair that ‘ciswomen’ are part of a club rape crisis service they’re not invited to.

I enjoyed Janice Turner’s column this morning:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0caeb050-7bed-11ed-bcd8-855e06175970?shareToken=6c36afa4062e5f272928b154f2c4d94b

‘It wouldn’t occur to me to be angry that a group had created a service for themselves which excluded me. I’m delighted there are gay men’s health clinics, an LGBT anti-abuse charity, a Jewish women’s refuge or one for women of colour, such as Southall Black Sisters. One size doesn’t fit all.’

SinnerBoy · 15/12/2022 18:22

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · Today 15:47

How come trans-identifying males are allowed to be scared of men, but women aren't?

Aha! I know the answer:

Because reasons and magic unicorn sparkle gender woo woo.

Do you see now?

DeanVolecapeAKAelderberry · 15/12/2022 18:18

There was an interview on RTÉ radio this morning with a young woman who is going to have an elective mastectomy next month (possibly later an elective hysterectomy) because she is at genetic risk of breast cancer.

Despite this being very advisable for medical reasons, her consultants wouldn't let her go ahead with it at the age of 18 because her body was too young, still developing, and they didn't feel it would be safe. But girls of 16 and younger are getting it done in the USA for 'gender' reasons. So crazy, so cruel.

www.rte.ie/radio/radio1/clips/22185971/

IReallyLikeCrows · 15/12/2022 17:11

It shows the limits of his intelligence to ask a woman "what do you think I might do?". And to then go on to say you can be assaulted anywhere. "Oh, wow James! We did not know that, you're so right given that we can be assaulted anywhere at any time it makes no sense to have any privacy at all, so we should all get undressed in front of men all the time and not worry about it because we could just as easily be felt up on the tube or raped at home or down an alley or murdered by our partner. What on earth are we making such a big song and dance about, silly, silly us!"

She was incredibly calm and I don't think he liked that at all. He was trying to make her angry so he could dismiss her as a nutter which in the end he did by cutting her off when she sarcastically said "Yes, I'm a religious extremist" (not exact words).

She was right, of course. My take on the whole gender thing is that instead of saying to kids "Oh, you want to wear a dress. YOU ARE A GIRL AND NOT A BOY!" you say, "fair enough, you might get teased for it at school but you can wear whatever you want." If a girl wants to play with cars and toy soldiers it's not "YOU ARE A BOY AND NOT A GIRL!" you just let her play with what she wants to play with. Gender restrictions are the issue and the fact that instead of dealing with that we are reverting to some insane decades-old notion of what is a woman and what is a man. The numbers of people who want to fully and completely transition are very, very low. When I was much younger I thought they should be allowed to. When I was older I thought that maybe throwing surgery at something that was not so much a mental illness but definitely a disorder wasn't such a good idea. I still don't think it's a good thing, not because I'm a transphobe but because while I can see that it helps to "look like"what you feel you are, but men who transition have medical issues for life because the vaginas that are made for them are basically a wound and to keep it open there are infections and all manner of difficulties. Likewise, give a woman who transitions a penis and it's not a penis. It might look like one but it doesn't behave like one (might be an advantage given how some penises attached to men behave, but I digress). However, if someone is given all the information about the medical difficulties and they still want to go ahead after proper therapy then I guess that should be possible but I think at some point in the future of humanity it will seem to have been a very barbaric thing to do. The percentage of people who go down this root is tiny.

Most of the TRA are people who want the "benefits" without surgery which is fair enough, I wouldn't want my body disfigured either, but the "benefits" they want are ones invented by them, forced on others and stolen from centuries of work from women trying so hard to get out from under patriarchal oppression. Just as we're getting somewhere TRAs find a way to take it away from us.

My other issue is when it comes to children an awful lot, especially among young girls, are gay/lesbian and somehow they are being informed - by not necessarily well-meaning adults and our society at large, that's it better to be a straight trans person than a gay wo/man.

And breathe. Sorry. That was a bit tl;dr. Apologies for any grammatical errors/typos that sort of thing.

duc748 · 15/12/2022 16:27

It's a very good question, which should be directed to JOB, and many others too.

Kucingsparkles · 15/12/2022 16:22

How come trans-identifying males are allowed to be scared of men, but women aren't?

I'm sure JOB would deny it, but the underlying reason is because he doesn't think women are full human beings, that being a state that only male humans are entitled to.

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NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 15/12/2022 15:47

StellaAndCrow · 15/12/2022 12:34

When James O'Brien is asking "if you're getting changed, and I'm on the other side of the curtain, what do you think I might do" I can't help but feel he's getting off on it, and hoping for further info about her fears for his fantasies.

Why doesn't James O'Brien address this question to trans-identifying male people who say they are too uncomfortable to use men's changing rooms, because of the presence of men? Why doesn't anyone else?

"If [insert name of trans activist] is getting changed, and James is on the other side of the curtain, what do you think he might do to [name]?"

How come trans-identifying males are allowed to be scared of men, but women aren't?

Kucingsparkles · 15/12/2022 14:49

Thanks for the South Korean story moto, it's instructive to see how sexism seems like a human universal.

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CyanCyan · 15/12/2022 14:18

StellaAndCrow · 15/12/2022 12:34

When James O'Brien is asking "if you're getting changed, and I'm on the other side of the curtain, what do you think I might do" I can't help but feel he's getting off on it, and hoping for further info about her fears for his fantasies.

Thanks for sharing this. Such a brilliant, powerful response. I don’t know how she kept her cool with him for so long. Listening to the original exchange reminded me of the way an ex boyfriend used to argue and I’d be tearing my hair out unable to get a word in edgeways. Awful behaviour.

duc748 · 15/12/2022 13:43

Presumably, in that story, for 'gender', read 'sex'.

duc748 · 15/12/2022 13:41

Meanwhile, in South Korea,

Saw this item today. That falling birth-rate explained, eh?

Britinme · 15/12/2022 13:18

Oh boy I wonder if he'll ever be able to reattach that arse?

ErrolTheDragon · 15/12/2022 13:12

This James Obrien person isn't someone I'm aware of (LBC may be available nationally but I'm not sure it's actually much heard outside London) ... re what do you think I might do isn't he aware of the basics eg the statistics on the significantly greater incidence of voyeurism etc in mixed sex facilities v single sex?

Winterborne74 · 15/12/2022 13:00

"I'm a Nice Guy and this fuss has only just come to my attention, so I don't really know much about it, but here's my input anyway... Why oh why can't everyone just Be Kind... and Ladies, perhaps if you were less strident... So really everyone could have avoided the fuss if they just watched it quietly online!"

There must be a script. Lots of men at the old place had this one down pat too.

StellaAndCrow · 15/12/2022 12:34

When James O'Brien is asking "if you're getting changed, and I'm on the other side of the curtain, what do you think I might do" I can't help but feel he's getting off on it, and hoping for further info about her fears for his fantasies.

Kucingsparkles · 15/12/2022 12:34

He's protected his Tweets, poor lamb.

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SinnerBoy · 15/12/2022 12:31

The howls of laughter are quite something.

DameMaud · 15/12/2022 12:29

If that's the one. Of course... There could be many

DameMaud · 15/12/2022 12:27

Kucingsparkles · 15/12/2022 09:08

such dull, entitled pricks?

This morning DH gleefully showed me his Twitter feed (usually a peaceful haven of really geeky science stuff) - an acquaintance from his uni days was having his arse handed to him.

It was about the latest charming Righteous cancellation of another screening of Adult Human Female in Scotland; this uni friend had jumped in with the hot take of "I'm a Nice Guy and this fuss has only just come to my attention, so I don't really know much about it, but here's my input anyway... Why oh why can't everyone just Be Kind... and Ladies, perhaps if you were less strident... So really everyone could have avoided the fuss if they just watched it quietly online!"

Here's the Twitter feed link for you. Enjoy!
twitter.com/PaulfrYorkshire/status/1603130782130016256?t=j9Ov1qaPQigenQH2rd0EbQ&s=19

MavisMcMinty · 15/12/2022 12:23

That’s interesting, and presumably not just because women live longer than men, Errol?

ErrolTheDragon · 15/12/2022 12:14

There's a piece in the Times today about Alzheimer's affecting women more than men - I can't get a sharetoken link at the moment, maybe it's covered elsewhere. Might be worth a thread together with the invisible women piece @Britinme linked to upthread as a counterpoint.

StephanieSuperpowers · 15/12/2022 10:49

I actually hate men like JOB. Hectoring, deliberately shouting her down, completely unaware of their own misogyny, absolutely convinced of their own righteousness.

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 15/12/2022 10:44

This one's a little niche, and is unlikely to become the next Scotland because getting the NI government to agree on anything - when there is a government - is virtually impossible. But for fans of analysing how data is gathered, the report linked from the BBC article is quite interesting.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4698105-gender-recognition-law-reform-positive-for-transgender-community-in-northern-ireland

SinnerBoy · 15/12/2022 10:02

Oh dear, poor lamb etc!

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