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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Girl Got A New Haircut. Father Shocked By The Things Strangers Now Say To Her.

166 replies

Onnabugeisha · 04/12/2022 19:05

From US HuffPost

My Daughter Got A New Haircut. I'm Shocked By The Things Strangers Now Say To Her.

"Our 12-year-old daughter would like to pee without being harassed. Lately, she can’t seem to escape it."

Article: www.huffpost.com/entry/daughter-short-haircut-harassment_n_6384dd5ae4b06ef4a546c8a5?utm_campaign=share_email&ncid=other_email_o63gt2jcad4

OP posts:
Onnabugeisha · 05/12/2022 10:13

@SamphiretheTervosaurReturneth
Accosting a child as described is, obviously, poorly done and the man needed to be spoken to. A man, you notice, not a GC woman, a feminist, yet here you are, admonishing a forum of women for that man's actions. How many other forums, ones filled with men, have you chosen to similarly admonish?

I welcome all comments from those who have actually read the article, which you quite clearly have not bothered to do. The very first paragraph in the article states:

“Our 12-year-old daughter would like to pee without being harassed. Lately, she can’t seem to escape it. Recently, after a long, fun-packed day at a local amusement park, Jenny used the bathroom on the way to the exit. (Jenny is a lovely name, but it’s not our daughter’s real one.) Jenny was met with an adult’s gasp on her way out of the stall and asked why she was in the women’s bathroom. Jenny responded that she is a girl.”

This was a woman, because it’s a fact that it is certain transphobic women (some of whom are within the GC movement) who are policing Women’s toilets. So yes I am alerting the men and women on Mumsnet, as this is a mixed sex parenting site, not a single sex womens forum. This is an issue that should concern all parents as it effects the safety of their children using public toilets.

I am quite happy to see most posters stating that only “idiots” and “religious nutters” would confront a child in the womens toilets. I think I can therefore depend on everyone here, to challenge any adult woman confronting a masculine appearing child using the womens toilets to defend that child from such harassment.

The issue here is that TRAs have worked so very effectively to make gender stereotypes the norm again. Not the case per academic research on the subject:

“Gender-critical’ feminists (e.g. Jeffreys, 2014b) often argue that ‘trans activists’ reinforce stereotypical gender roles – for example, promoting that a woman must look and act in a particularly feminine way. In our data, however, hetero- and cisnormative systems and structures (protected by ‘gender-critical’ feminists and others), pressured trans people to act and present according to specific, normative gender expectations in order to keep themselves safe (see also Bender-Baird, 2016). Of course, cisgender women, too, have to meet these standards; gender non-conforming and butch cisgender women are also subject to misgendering and violence in women’s toilets (Cavanagh, 2010; Munt, 1998). Surveillance in women-only toilets therefore reinforces the rules that gender-critical feminists claim they want to abolish. Making trans lives impossible is prioritised over and above creating spaces inclusive of all women.”

Jones, Charlotte and Jen Slater. The toilet debate: Stalling trans possibilities and defending ‘women’s protected spaces’ The Sociological Review, Vol 68 Issue 4.

doi.org/10.1177/0038026120934697

OP posts:
Circumferences · 05/12/2022 10:02

If HuffPost posted an article every time a female person gets "shocked by what strangers say to them" they'd have no time to do anything else....

Kucingsparkles · 05/12/2022 10:01

Anybody who thinks* that gender atheists are the ones insisting that girls have long hair and boys have short hair is (a) completely lacking in understanding of the position (b) a pious fraud.

*And they probably don't really think that, they're just saying shite that they fondly imagine is some kind of "gotcha" that plays well amongst their fellow gender religionists.

Helleofabore · 05/12/2022 09:55

There is a world of difference between ‘challenge’ and raising eyebrows and asking if a child is lost.

And I have met 12 year old girls who are tall enough to mistake for a later teen boy and so may be questioned about being in the wrong toilets. I was tall too at that age and if I had baggy clothes on, I was questioned.

There are many issues that OP is twisting here and that the author of that argument is emphasising that fit an extremist view point.

Notanotherone6 · 05/12/2022 09:49

Don't believe a word of it. Would an adult challenge a child in the toilets, just because they have short hair? Unlikely. And why is a girl being referred to as a boy whilst playing football, when presumably it's a girls' team?

This sort of shite is made up to stir people up unnecessarily.

SamphiretheTervosaurReturneth · 05/12/2022 09:42

Onnabugeisha · 04/12/2022 22:55

My primary concern reading this is that if you’re a GC man or woman and you think you are seeing a transchild, then keep your mouth shut or find their parent(s) as the author suggests.

If you want to challenge someone you think is a transwoman or transman who is where or doing what you think they should not be that’s your choice to do so, but please don’t pick on a child FFS. At least have the decency to only confront adults.

I think children should be unequivocally off limits on principle.

Ah! Another version of "Be nice and budge over"

Accosting a child as described is, obviously, poorly done and the man needed to be spoken to. A man, you notice, not a GC woman, a feminist, yet here you are, admonishing a forum of women for that man's actions. How many other forums, ones filled with men, have you chosen to similarly admonish?

The issue here is that TRAs have worked so very effectively to make gender stereotypes the norm again. Reversing decades of work on removing such shit from our lives. This is the backlash, women being shoved back in their Pretty Little Boxes. Only this time we have to take some men back in with us!

Women and girls have always been challenged for having short hair, not conforming to that gendered set of stereotypes. "Trans" is just another sick with which to beat us.

Take that up with the men wielding the stick - and those behind him busy handing him a new one as and when needed!

Babdoc · 05/12/2022 09:38

When I was at school in the 1960s, the class pin up, over whom all the boys drooled, had a very short pixie style haircut. Nobody ever mistook her for a boy!
Nowadays one of my DDs has a v short buzzcut, but again is very obviously female, and has never been queried in women’s loos.
I find it ridiculous that anyone would have such difficulty in distinguishing male from female that they had to rely on haircut to judge. It is obvious from gait, stance, shoulder to hip ratio, larynx, hand size, foot size, pelvis, voice depth, etc. No male “passes” as female unless in heavily photoshopped pictures.

Helleofabore · 05/12/2022 09:35

This article was also written by a person who is using all the words that trans allies use. Should we take it that they are an extreme trans rights activist?? Should we the discount it?

Because that is what you are doing, as I believe is your usual tactic.

Is it overly emotive? Yes. Should this child be constantly questioned about their sex category? No.

But this is not a new phenomenon. And many of us have dealt with exactly this issue. It didn’t harm most of us by the sounds of it. I was called a boy as long as I could remember until I developed breasts.

So, again. I would also be laying the blame for a child being distraught about being mis-sexed on those extreme activists who have also promoted ‘mis-sexing’ as being hateful and significant mental health issues such as causing suicide ideation.

Well done OP. I see there are plenty of issues with this article being raised. And the issue is that only one group is pushing for ‘gender conformity’ to prop up their demands, and only one group has promoted the very conditions for a phenomenon that has been happening for decades as being significant issue that causes very serious mental health issues.

Not sure you meant it that way, but not one of your posts on this thread is convincing that this is an issue caused by feminists seeking to prioritise sex over gender when it matters.

Such as toilets, over night school stays and sports.

(how amazing that this dad also knew to mention just those issues in his article - such a surprise!)

MilkshakesBringAllTheCoosToTheYard · 05/12/2022 09:24

Beowulfa · 05/12/2022 09:10

I know a young woman with very short hair; looks stunning but clearly female. She says she was unprepared for the comments she gets:

-assumptions she's a lesbian
-told by her (female) boss that she'd be assumed to be a prostitute in her home country
-asked by someone she hadn't seen for ages if she'd had chemotherapy (becuase obviously no woman would choose to have short hair?)

I was genuinely shocked.

People are weird about short hair on women. I shaved mine for a charity thing and the comments around 'you're so brave' - I'm like, no, I'm not brave at all, I clipped a thing that will grow again. And so many people thought I had cancer, if I met people I hadn't seen in ages I took to prefacing the conversation with 'I don't have cancer, it was a charity thing.'

So very odd.

No-one thought I was a man though...

Helleofabore · 05/12/2022 09:16

Onnabugeisha · 04/12/2022 23:25

Nice try. It’s not TRAs challenging a possible transgirl in the womens toilets or whinging about a seeming transgirl playing on a girls football team and calling her “he” and “him.” It’s GC activists. You know it, I know it. Let’s not pretend otherwise.

There’s no inference going on, it’s written in plain English that children are being caught in the crossfire.

No.

The world is full of people who are neither extreme trans activists or people who are feminists.

You are also sadly mistaken if you ever thought that the majority of the world would be accepting of males over 8 using female single sex toilets.

Adults should be sensitive about dealing with children. But just to point out that a male on puberty blockers could be looking like a young teen girl. and a 12 year old girl can be tall already.

You are attempting to blame feminists for this issue. Feminists who encourage gender non-conformity.

Lay the blame on those who have actively advocated for males to have access to female single sex spaces. It is those people who have encouraged the breach to the boundaries of others.

I imagine that if that hadn’t have happened, the reaction would have been like when my 12 year old self with the horrid bowl cut that my father insisted I have used the female toilets. A look and a quick ‘the boys is over there’ followed by me going red and staring embarrassedly ‘I am a girl’. And nothing more was done.

But you are indulging in your own deep prejudices here. And I am still unconvinced that you understand the term ‘gender critical’ that you are flinging around.

PetersensArm · 05/12/2022 09:16

One of the (many, many) weird things about this movement is that suddenly some people seem confused enough to think that feminists want everyone to live as a gender stereotype.

It is quite a handy way of determinining who doesn't have a clue what they're talking about though.

Imagine actually thinking "wow, these women who are critical of gender want people to be totally gender conforming".

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 05/12/2022 09:16

I’m not sure that I would take this article at face value.

KitchenFleur · 05/12/2022 09:13

Ok, sorry, I was confused!

ErrolTheDragon · 05/12/2022 09:11

Yes, I was agreeing with what you said. Trying to explain a bit more for the benefit of the op.

Beowulfa · 05/12/2022 09:10

I know a young woman with very short hair; looks stunning but clearly female. She says she was unprepared for the comments she gets:

-assumptions she's a lesbian
-told by her (female) boss that she'd be assumed to be a prostitute in her home country
-asked by someone she hadn't seen for ages if she'd had chemotherapy (becuase obviously no woman would choose to have short hair?)

I was genuinely shocked.

KitchenFleur · 05/12/2022 09:09

ErrolTheDragon · 05/12/2022 09:04

a misguided fool who thinks hair length and clothes dictate gender,

There are people who are neither transactivists nor gender critical who think gender stereotypes linked to sex are right and proper. In the US that's probably a lot of 'religious right' types.

Isn’t that what I said?
GC people are very unlikely to expect children to adhere to gender stereotypes, which leaves TRAs or misguided fools (I’m happy to place religious nuts in this category).

ErrolTheDragon · 05/12/2022 09:04

a misguided fool who thinks hair length and clothes dictate gender,

There are people who are neither transactivists nor gender critical who think gender stereotypes linked to sex are right and proper. In the US that's probably a lot of 'religious right' types.

Girl Got A New Haircut. Father Shocked By The Things Strangers Now Say To Her.
thirdfiddle · 05/12/2022 08:56

If there was one child I would absolutely assume was /not/ a transgirl on the girls' football team, it's the one with short hair. The first thing kids with gender issues do seems to be change their hairstyle. They may think they're a transboy so I'd probably avoid pronoun use around them, but none the less welcome on the girls' team for that.

KitchenFleur · 05/12/2022 08:56

Any adult questioning a girl for having short hair is not GC.
More likely to be a TRA or a misguided fool who thinks hair length and clothes dictate gender, which is ridiculous.

Oh and: “She is a strongly feminist Cis (sorry but you have to state that as well these days)”
No. You don’t have to state that at all. Women and girls are not a subset of their own sex. Using Cis plays into this gender madness and accepts that humans can change sex, when they can’t.

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 05/12/2022 08:39

Onnabugeisha · 04/12/2022 22:55

My primary concern reading this is that if you’re a GC man or woman and you think you are seeing a transchild, then keep your mouth shut or find their parent(s) as the author suggests.

If you want to challenge someone you think is a transwoman or transman who is where or doing what you think they should not be that’s your choice to do so, but please don’t pick on a child FFS. At least have the decency to only confront adults.

I think children should be unequivocally off limits on principle.

Well yes 😳

obviously

although judging by your post i reckon that there are a lot of people out there that have no idea that they are a GC person…..i don’t know what your definition of GC is to be fair

Happylittlechicken · 05/12/2022 05:39

@Onnabugeisha but isn’t it trans ideology adherents that believe short hair = boy, long hair = girl so the complaining father may have been a full TRA? GC feminists don’t care about peoples hair length, in fact if you look at many prominent GC women, they have short hair, and are still women, whereas Eddie Izzard believes you’re a girl if you wear heels. So the article seems to be a trans activist father is picking on a girl for not comforting to gender stereotypes as they are the ones who insist on gender stereotypes o define people.

Bosky · 05/12/2022 04:50

"Adults second-guessing Jenny’s gender — out loud and to her — began soon after the haircut. During a soccer game, the father of a rival player kept referring loudly to Jenny as “he” and “him.” It was outside the earshot of our sideline, and we didn’t find out until after the game. Our daughter’s teammates would have none of it. They checked the dad in real time, admonishing him that “you need to check your pronouns, buddy.”

So that's 12 year old girls giving cheek to the father of one of the players on the rival team because he innocently thought that Jenny was a 12 year old boy?

And Jenny's dad thinks that's just great?

"For Jenny, my wife and I will be just outside the bathroom door. We’d be happy to discuss why you’re so concerned with the body parts below our daughter’s beautiful head of hair."

Nice euphemism for, "What are you people? Genital inspectors?"

The only sick and twisted person here is the author.

This story is just typical trans activist trash-talking, gaslighting bullshit.

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 05/12/2022 00:53

My primary concern reading this is that if you’re a GC man or woman and you think you are seeing a transchild, then keep your mouth shut or find their parent(s) as the author suggests

No one except a committed genderist is going to assume a girl is trans because she has short hair. That doesn’t even make sense. Hair length is not sexually dimorphic. It is heavily gendered, however, thanks to the TRA gender enforcement army.

This father is either making shit up or is fundamentally confused about the worldview of people who make these remarks.

Most likely he’s making shit up, he
seems like a specimen of the same kind of deeply confused idjit who thinks being gender critical is about reinforcing gender roles.
But the soccer incident is consistent with the other father trying to “affirm” his daughter’s perceived gender identity as a transboy.

Honestly, you should be embarrassed you posted this.

MrsTerryPratchett · 05/12/2022 00:35

Onnabugeisha · 04/12/2022 23:50

I think this quote is most appropriate in response:
”Never mind. No matter the twisted motivation or misdirected agenda, there is a power imbalance when an adult confronts a child about their looks, style, clothes, gender or gender identity…”

What do you make of Eddie Izzard's story about being confronted by teenage girls in the Ladies? Who is leaving children out of it there?

ErrolTheDragon · 05/12/2022 00:14

And if you think it's only gender critical women who don't want males playing on female sports teams, you're very much mistaken. It's practically everyone.

In this case, a bloke who (a) mis judged a child's sex because of the length of her hair but then behaved horribly. If he thought there was a boy on the girls team he should have had a quiet chat with a coach or whoever.